British Road Tax Scheme

[geoffrey]

What about the social consequences? Does this drive a huge stake between rich and poor?

Somebody has to pay rent. Or would you prefer a society where rent (mortgage payments) were zero for all? A society of squatters.

Let's be honest. Anyone driving a vehicle on a road is a squatter. They may pay their taxes, just like squatters pay sales taxes or VAT, but the drivers are not paying for the specific use of that specific road space at that specific time. The drivers are like squatters. They're taking something for free, despite how much they argue that they've paid for it.

Sold. Let's install the meters tomorrow, and refund a proportionate amount back through lower property tax. I'm actually going to call my alderperson...

[jester]

Why not look at the cause of congestion. Roads are not busy ALL the time but at certain times of the day.This is usually because everyone goes to work at the same time. Solution 1--stagger work times. Virtually every city centre is full of large office buildings. Why do they all have to go to work at the same times? Divide each building into 4 time groups with different travel times,eg 7-8, 8-9, 9-19, 10-11. If there are 100,000 coming in each day on a network that can handle 80,000 you have cut congestion by 75% each hour with plenty of spare capacity. Solution 2--Most of these buildings are used by banks,financial institutions and corporate headquarters. Why do they all have to be in the same place? Do not allow any more large buildings in city centres and enforce a clear zone around each new one, say 1 mile for every 1,000 workers in a building. This will spread any traffic into a larger area . I mean why are they all jammed in the same place, they don't pass bags of money or notes to and fro any more do they? A side benefit of spreading out large office buildings is that the financial benefit they carry is spread out as well along with decreased travel for the employees getting there. Solution 3--Rebuild the entire road network. Most congestion is caused by traffic stopping and going which is mainly due to intersections, remove the intersections. Make all east west roads at a different level than north south roads with pedestrian walkways at another level. This results in no traffic lights and no pedestrian crossings so traffic can move at a steady pace all the time, no congestion again. Solution 4--Why tax somebody just for going to work? Tax who benefits from that work, the banks, financial institutions and corporate headquarters. Charge them for every employee who travels at high congestion times into the city centre. If they move offices into less congested areas or stagger start times they pay less so congestion falls.

Another fault with congestion charging is the liberty problem. Are you willing to have a computer in your car that will tell the government everywhere you go so they can charge you for it? How long before it is used to police illegal parking or speeding or to monitor where people go and with who? And remember the politicains and the rich won't pay this, we will through subsidies, company cars and tax breaks. Congestion charging carries too many other risks and penalties that have nothing to do with clearing the roads, why not just ban anyone who makes less than $100,000 from owning or driving a car........

[August1991]

At present, road space is a lot like health care. It is a part of the infrastructure which makes our society work just as much as power and gas lines. Without it our society can't function and without a functioning society there will be no health care.

Do we let people take as much power or gas as they can after paying a flat fee? No, we sell it by kwh or cubic meters. As to health care, what a model to imitate!

Road space is not like other scare commodities because it cannot be created in places where it is needed. This means that free market cannot respond to a demand by increasing supply or providing alternatives. The 'market' can only be used to determine who should get the supply available. That is why a road tax has nothing to do with the free market. It is simply an exercise in social engineering.

One could say exactly the same about housing. Do you suggest that we tax everyone and then provide free apartments to all - allocated by some scheme that requires waiting in a line?

That said, I don't reject the notion of fees designed to encourage transit use in places where transit is a practical alternative. However, such fees would be just another form of taxation and not some 'free market' mechanism.

That's a weird position to take. It's as if you argue against capital punishment and then suggest that we chop off only half the head.

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Jester, your first three solutions require an all-powerful and all-knowledgeable planner who can organize the personal affairs of millions people. The Soviet Union is proof that such planners do not exist. (For one, the planners - being human - are open to bribes or influence.)

As to your fourth "solution", you are mistaken if you think "banks" or "big corporations" benefit from anything. To my knowledge, a bank or a corporation has never used a pay cheque to pay rent and never used a dividend cheque to pay for a retirement home. No bank or corporation has gotten married or had a good meal with friends in a restaurant. In short, banks and corporations do not enjoy life.

As to your final point, people use credit cards and leave all manner of fingerprints all over the place. The modern world is good reason to be vigilant about government. But government is an institution we need now more than ever.

[Wilber]

Do we let people take as much power or gas as they can after paying a flat fee? No, we sell it by kwh or cubic meters. As to health care, what a model to imitate!

The money taken in for those services is reinvested in providing the service, not put into general revenue to be spent on who knows what. Why not health care? Transportation is at least as essential as health care for our society to function. Without efficient transportation systems our society couldn't generate the wealth required to provide health care

[jester]

Jester, your first three solutions require an all-powerful and all-knowledgeable planner who can organize the personal affairs of millions people. The Soviet Union is proof that such planners do not exist. (For one, the planners - being human - are open to bribes or influence.)

You mean like governments do all the time? Or at least try to. City planners do it all the time just rezone certain areas or refuse building permits, it's not rocket science.

As to your fourth "solution", you are mistaken if you think "banks" or "big corporations" benefit from anything

Banks etc benefit from the labour of the employees doing the congestion, it's called profits. if nobody travelled to work in the offices thrre wouldn't be any congestion. Why not tax them for every employee that travels into the city centre and use the money to improve or build public transport.

As to your final point, people use credit cards and leave all manner of fingerprints all over the place. The modern world is good reason to be vigilant about government. But government is an institution we need now more than ever.

True but the government isn't using it to deliberately tax you or know where you have been. In the UK it is estimated that every person is on a CCTV camera 300 times a day, but this systems only use targets you for the purpose of monitoring you movements and taxing you on them. Bigger government isn't always better government........

[Wilber]

QUOTE(Riverwind @ May 18 2007, 02:42 PM)

That said, I don't reject the notion of fees designed to encourage transit use in places where transit is a practical alternative. However, such fees would be just another form of taxation and not some 'free market' mechanism.

That's a weird position to take. It's as if you argue against capital punishment and then suggest that we chop off only half the head.

Equating transportation with capital punishment is a lot weirder than equating it with health care.

[jester]

A bit of additional info on the British road tax scheme--over 2 million people signed a petition against the proposal (all ignored by the gov), it would cost approx £8 billion a year to run. The equipment for the system is to be paid for by the car owner, at last guess £600 ($1,200) per car. A novel idea of you paying so you can be taxed.......

[August1991]

Reading an article in the G&M about a report to the city government of Toronto, I find this:

"This report has confirmed that the city can be run more efficiently, that there are savings that can be had," said Mr. Minnan-Wong, who added he supports the report's suggestion to give the mayor the power to hire and fire the city's top bureaucrat, but opposes the idea of adding tolls to the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardiner Expressway.

That idea, pushed by panel member Larry Tanenbaum, chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd., would see the two traffic arteries handed over either to the province or the regional transportation agency Metrolinx, as part of a possible scheme to toll all of the 400-series highways. This would save the city $20-million a year in maintenance, and the plan would be to give it a share of toll revenues.

Mr. Tanenbaum said yesterday the idea would help push drivers onto public transit, while providing millions to build new subways and light-rail lines.

G&M

I don't know who this guy Tanenbaum is but he's on the leading edge of a wave. Cities charge money if you put (park) a car on city street. Why is it different if the car is moving? That is, why do we pay money if the car is stopped but we don't pay money if the car is moving?

What's the difference? The car still takes up space.

IMHO, this is a no brainer and smart municipal politicians will clue into it very soon. Tanenbaum seems to be a smart operator.

The money taken in for those services is reinvested in providing the service, not put into general revenue to be spent on who knows what. Why not health care? Transportation is at least as essential as health care for our society to function. Without efficient transportation systems our society couldn't generate the wealth required to provide health care

Wilber, I'm surprised that you entrust "critical needs" to government. Given postal service, would you trust food production and delivery to government? Without food, you die.

Some would argue that since health care and transportation are so critical, government bureaucrats should only be involved if the rest of us can't cope. And to be honest, based on my (limited) experience of life, I only trust bureaucrats when I manage to establish a human connection. IME, government bureaucrats don't do cooperation well. My local vegetable market, friends and family are better for cooperation. Government bureaucrats are a last resort.

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Let me return to this OP.

The technology exists now to charge for the use of urban roads. Smart municipal governments should charge car drivers when they drive on roads at peak hours just as they charge to park on a road. Why not?

Edited February 23, 2008 by August1991

[August1991]

Countries like Sweden and Great Britain have used tolls to ease congestion, curb carbon emissions, fund public transit and generally create a more comfortable and expedient commute for all travellers.

CBC

Canada. What a hopelessly regressive backwater.