Tissue of sleaze in shreds

[The Terrible Sweal]

It should surprise no-one, after all the prevarication and delay that it turns out the FULLer version of Grewal tapes destroy the tories' outlandish accusations.

Quite apart from the bad ethics of trying to use partial, doctored evidence to besmirch reputations and destroy careers, what strikes me is the utterly amateurish stupidity of it. When it comes to Harpers CPC, the words 'Not fit for any public office' just LEAP to mind.

G&M story

Key Excerpts:

OTTAWA -- Conservative Leader Stephen Harper yesterday stood by his MP Gurmant Grewal and the tapes that he surreptitiously recorded even though 14 minutes were missing from the versions initially released -- gaps that give a different colour to the MP's conversations with senior Liberals.

...

On Thursday night, the Conservatives released a new version of the recordings after several experts said they appeared to have been altered. They said that a few snippets were accidentally removed when the recordings were digitally copied.

In fact, 14 minutes were missing -- short and long passages throughout the recordings.  

...

"We've taken a close look at the tape. There's a couple of minor glitches in the transposition between technologies and transcription and they've been corrected," Mr. Harper said in Calgary.

...

Many of the sections missing from the original version do not appear to bolster allegations the Liberals were trying to buy his vote, or could embarrass Mr. Grewal or the Tories.

In a May 17 meeting of Mr. Grewal, Mr. Murphy and Mr. Dosanjh, Mr. Murphy tells Mr. Grewal that the Liberals will not make deals for rewards outside of politics.

...

At the end, Mr. Murphy says he understands that "security matters," but makes no promises. "I think what we're saying is you need to think about it and I'm saying we need to think about it because there still is a bit of a gap," Mr. Murphy tells him

...

That conversation followed another that was included in the original recordings released -- but transcripts released by the Conservatives changed the meaning.

The transcript has Mr. Murphy telling Mr. Grewal that other Conservative MPs have offered to cross the floor, but the Liberals have refused but "frankly it is better for us and frankly for someone like you to get that reward."

In fact, the recordings show Mr. Murphy said the Prime Minister considered it wrong to offer such a reward. "They have asked for a reward outside of politics, and I just don't think that's -- the Prime Minister doesn't think that's the right thing to do.

"So I want you to know that it is -- you might say there's an element of trust in what's been happening here, but there's a reason and frankly it's better for us, to be honest and frankly it's better for someone like you to move forward on that basis."

...

[kimmy]

Utterly damning for Grewal, obviously. Whether it's as damning for the Tories as a whole somewhat depends on whether Grewal had input from the party leadership.

I think Harper is making a huge mistake by continuing to stand up for Grewal. He should do a Chretien-- disavow any knowledge of Grewal editing the tapes. And refuse to sign Grewal's nomination papers next election.

The transcript has Mr. Murphy telling Mr. Grewal that other Conservative MPs have offered to cross the floor, but the Liberals have refused but "frankly it is better for us and frankly for someone like you to get that reward."

Which reward specifically was being discussed in this portion? I'm also curious what's meant by "someone like you". Ethnic? Vancouver-area? Riding that the Liberals could hold in the next election? It'd be interesting to know which other Tory MPs they'd talked to, and why the Liberals prefered Grewal to the others. If an ethnic MP crosses the floor, it hurts the Tories in the same way that Stronach's defection did-- creates the impression that the Tories are not an inclusive party. Had these negotiations panned out for Grewal, I imagine that there'd have been a speech something along the lines of Stronach's, except substitute multicultural in places where Stronach said women.

In fact, the recordings show Mr. Murphy said the Prime Minister considered it wrong to offer such a reward. "They have asked for a reward outside of politics, and I just don't think that's -- the Prime Minister doesn't think that's the right thing to do.

Well, it's good news for PMPM that this portion finally made it public, at least.

Overall, the edited portions add to my impression that Grewal was probably pretty sincere when he went to the Liberals looking for goodies. I don't think he was doing this for the Tories, I think he was doing this for Grewal. The portion about his interest in "security" and his pension makes me doubt that he planned this as a sting. Most likely he was taping this stuff because he wanted it as leverage to hold Murphy to any promises he was able to extract. I suspect Tory leadership might have gotten wind of Grewal's negotiations, and he came up with this "sting" idea as a means of covering his ass. I think that the editing job was probably Grewal's attempt to reduce the appearance that he was seriously interested in jumping ship. Harper might be trying to put a brave face on it publicly, but privately I bet he's furious at Grewal over this whole thing.

-k

[The Terrible Sweal]

Utterly damning for Grewal, obviously. Whether it's as damning for the Tories as a whole  somewhat depends on whether Grewal had input from the party leadership.

Fair enough, but witholding the tapes and Harper's lack of general circumspection in handling this so far suggest at best poor judgment on his part and possibly complicity in the cover-up.

[fellowtraveller]

Let's assume that Grewal either was trying to trap the Liberals, or that he was trying to sell his vote as an MP for a reward.

At what time did the Liberals - including a Cabinet Minsisterr and a Prime minister who were aware of the offer- at what point were the RCMP called to report this serious crime.

This isn't a matter of crossing the floor, it is an issue of an MP selling his vote to other MPs, and nothing said. As officersof the Crown, they have an absolute duty to report this to the RCMPimmediately.

Unless of course, they were doing the offering.......

[Technocrat]

the toronto star and a interesting article on Grewal... he has a pretty shady past of taping people and trying to screw them later because of it. Not exactly what i would call an honorable guy.

If you seached the toronto star im sure you would find it... this is the title but i don't have access to the page so if someone does plz post the contents its REALLY REALLY interesting.

Has he had his finger on the record button before?

2005-06-04 01:00:00 [Weekend]

[fellowtraveller]

What does it matter if Grewal has taped others before? I know business people who tape every phone call they make or recieve. It's not illegal.

and the OP: 'exonerate'? Do you find the conduct of the Liberals in this matter honourable?

[Riverwind]

This isn't a matter of crossing the floor, it is an issue of an MP selling his vote to other MPs, and nothing said.  As officersof the Crown, they have an absolute duty to report this to the RCMPimmediately.

A red herring. This entire discussion - whether Grewal was demanding posts or the Liberals offering perks is a political matter not a criminal one. Nor would it have made sense for the Liberals to immediately turn Grewal away because they needed the votes and they have every right to try to convince him to make the switch based on ethical terms.

[The Terrible Sweal]

and the OP: 'exonerate'?  Do you find the conduct of the Liberals in this matter honourable?

With the latest information, I would say that there is nothing to SHOW they have acted at all dishonourably.

[Argus]

and the OP: 'exonerate'?  Do you find the conduct of the Liberals in this matter honourable?

With the latest information, I would say that there is nothing to SHOW they have acted at all dishonourably.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but if there were full colour video of Martin stuffing taxpayers money into Grewals pockets and promising him millions more you'd still shake your head and say it proves nothing. I don't think any amount of evidence of any kind of crime will ever convince you that the Liberals have done wrong.

[The Terrible Sweal]

and the OP: 'exonerate'?  Do you find the conduct of the Liberals in this matter honourable?

With the latest information, I would say that there is nothing to SHOW they have acted at all dishonourably.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but if there were full colour video of Martin stuffing taxpayers money into Grewals pockets and promising him millions more you'd still shake your head and say it proves nothing. I don't think any amount of evidence of any kind of crime will ever convince you that the Liberals have done wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it's your nature to deal in extremes, Argus. But in fact, I think the people involved in the sponsorship scandal are crooks, and I think there's a pretty bad stink around Chretien himself.

[RightWinger]

and the OP: 'exonerate'?  Do you find the conduct of the Liberals in this matter honourable?

With the latest information, I would say that there is nothing to SHOW they have acted at all dishonourably.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but if there were full colour video of Martin stuffing taxpayers money into Grewals pockets and promising him millions more you'd still shake your head and say it proves nothing. I don't think any amount of evidence of any kind of crime will ever convince you that the Liberals have done wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL Argus, You hit the nail on the head there.

Damn Grewal, set our Liberals Free!

I don't believe the Liberals would ever do "anything" dishonourable. The have proved themselves time and time again!

[cybercoma]

Just the fact that Grewal would illegally record tape a conversation with someone is enough to disgust me. The fact that Harper is supporting him tooth and nail -- well I suppose it's his job to give his MPs the benefit of the doubt. If Harper knew the tapes were doctored and still supported him, then shame on Harper. I'm glad Peter MacKay isn't a blithering idiot and has completely washed his hands of the whole thing.

It will be a long time before you see change in the Conservative Party though. There will have to be another election, the Liberals will win ANOTHER minority government (likely by a lesser margin than this time around) and after that Harper will eventually be asked to step down. Peter MacKay will then take over leadership of the Party with Belinda out of the way and Harper gone.

Just maybe, at that time, the Conservatives will finally be in order.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Peter MacKay will then take over leadership of the Party with Belinda out of the way and Harper gone.

The Conservatives would fair worse under MacKay than under Harper.

[PocketRocket]

Having spent what seems like a lifetime in the field of professional audio, both in the live environment, and in the recording studio, I can say with some certainty that tapes do not "edit" themselves.

Converting analog recording to digital is a simple matter of "plug and play".

The bad excuse that it was a glitch in the format conversion is ludicrous.

This is borne out by the fact that the transcripts matched the edited version, not the original.

And even if we give the benefit of the doubt and stipulate that it WAS a techno-glitch, I would think the Mr Grewal would, upon seeing the transcripts, realize that something was amiss.

Nope. This stinks of fraud.

This current batch of Tories had an excellent opportunity to sit back and watch the Liberals stew in their own juices over the Sponsorship issue.

Making a few sympathetic and magnanimous noises over the "misfortunes" of the Libs during the Gomery enquiry would have played well in the public eye.

They could have come off looking like superheroes, and really swayed public opinion in their favor.

Instead, the bitch and squeal in an unprofessional manner, and then one of them pulls something like this.

They haven't figured out how to play public opinion in their favor, and that, in a nutshell, is what politics is all about.

And that, as much as I hate to say this in light of happenings in recent months, is why PMPM et al will probably win again.

Which really sucks.

But not as much as having Harper and Company voted in would.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Perpetrating this tape fraud could qualify as a criminal offence. It is certainly a civil tort. I think this is a very important issue which is not getting enough attention. It is time for Stephen Harper to answer some specific questions:

Who had the tapes for the almost two-weeks they were held back? What was done to them during that time?

[cybercoma]

Perpetrating this tape fraud could qualify as a criminal offence.  It is certainly a civil tort.  I think this is a very important issue which is not getting enough attention.  It is time for Stephen Harper to answer some specific questions:

Who had the tapes for the almost two-weeks they were held back?  What was done to them during that time?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Offering someone a cabinet position and a chance to be in the seante to defect from their party is also illegal isn't it?

[Riverwind]

Perpetrating this tape fraud could qualify as a criminal offence.  It is certainly a civil tort.  I think this is a very important issue which is not getting enough attention.  It is time for Stephen Harper to answer some specific questions:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Offering someone a cabinet position and a chance to be in the seante to defect from their party is also illegal isn't it?

It depends on whether a position was actually offered (which it wasn't). I would expect the same slippery logic could be applied to the fraud issue because I think there has to be some prospect for personal gain in order for there to be fraud.

I think we can give Harper the benefit of the doubt on whether he was personally involved in the edits - given how unprofessional the job was I suspect it was Grewal acting alone.

A civil suit is another question. I suspect Grewal will find him subject to a civil suit in the near future. Whether or not the Conservatives get dragged into the civil suit will depend on how much longer Harper continues to back Grewal.

[cybercoma]

Offering someone a cabinet position and a chance to be in the seante to defect from their party is also illegal isn't it?

It depends on whether a position was actually offered (which it wasn't). I would expect the same slippery logic could be applied to the fraud issue because I think there has to be some prospect for personal gain in order for there to be fraud.

I think we can give Harper the benefit of the doubt on whether he was personally involved in the edits - given how unprofessional the job was I suspect it was Grewal acting alone.

A civil suit is another question. I suspect Grewal will find him subject to a civil suit in the near future. Whether or not the Conservatives get dragged into the civil suit will depend on how much longer Harper continues to back Grewal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh that's just priceless....she wasn't offered a cabinet position? Even though she crossed the floor right into it? Or are we talking the senate position, which only time will tell?

Although I'd like to think of myself as more Conservative than Liberal, I refuse to give Harper the benefit of the doubt. He is supporting Grewal in all of this even though the tapes have obviously been altered. He should've distanced himself from the whole thing and made Grewal look like a rogue MP acting on his own.

[August1991]

Although I'd like to think of myself as more Conservative than Liberal, I refuse to give Harper the benefit of the doubt. He is supporting Grewal in all of this even though the tapes have obviously been altered. He should've distanced himself from the whole thing and made Grewal look like a rogue MP acting on his own.

I have no concern about Harper's integrity - if anything, I'm inclined to think he's a little too straight.

I too have wondered whether Harper should ask Grewal to resign from the caucus and sit as an independent until this issue is resolved. But on what basis would Harper request this? The Liberals say the tapes were altered; Grewal says not. And what about Grewal's wife? I noticed that Mackay distanced himself but that's easier for him. It's a messy situation and the worst, from the Tory perspective, is that the focus is no longer on Murphy or Dosanjh.

I'm reminded again of Harper's comment about becoming a monster to fight a monster. Any damn fool can burn down a barn but it takes someone smart to build one.

----

So far, this is what I have found that fills in the supposed "maybe" missing parts:

After one top analyst raised doubts Thursday, the Tories released a few passages they said were mistakenly lost in digital transfer. But two of the excerpts that reappeared -- translated from Punjabi -- are embarrassing for Grewal because they show him asking Dosanjh for a reward:

"If it is something good, then it would be tempting," Grewal says in one instance.

In another, he adds: "I want to be someone up there. If I go with you guys, I want to be someone up there."

Grewal's credibility may also be damaged by a discrepancy between the audio and transcripts provided on his website.

Grewal has claimed the Liberals offered him an ambassadorship. But on the tape, Murphy is heard ruling out such an appointment "outside of politics" because "the prime minister doesn't think that's the right thing to do."

Murphy's reference to the prime minister doesn't appear in the transcript provided by Grewal.

London Free Press

The G&M has this report of the new material:

That conversation followed another that was included in the original recordings released — but transcripts released by the Conservatives changed the meaning.

The transcript has Mr. Murphy telling Mr. Grewal that other Conservative MPs have offered to cross the floor, but the Liberals have refused but “frankly it is better for us and frankly for someone like you to get that reward.”

In fact, the recordings show Mr. Murphy said the Prime Minister considered it wrong to offer such a reward. “They have asked for a reward outside of politics, and I just don't think that's — the Prime Minister doesn't think that's the right thing to do.

“So I want you to know that it is — you might say there's an element of trust in what's been happening here, but there's a reason and frankly it's better for us, to be honest and frankly it's better for someone like you to move forward on that basis.”

So, according to the final version, 1) Grewal was clearly fishing and 2) Murphy says PM PM won't go outside of politics (whatever that means).

This is the sum total of the incriminating evidence in the supposed gaps.

----

Few Canadians are going to wade through all this. (I note that 30 years ago many Americans waded through much more to form an opinion, but that's a separate question.)

Instead, many Canadians will latch onto the phrase "tampered tape" and dismiss the whole episode as political shenanigans. IOW, most voters in Ontario do not want to hear that PM PM is a crook. They will cling to any evidence that he's an OK guy, being maligned. This is not because Paul Martin is a teflon politician, it is because these Ontario voters can no more imagine Harper as PM than Layton as PM.

[bigdude]

And what about Grewal's wife?

Good question as she has been totally silent yet she was mentioned in some of the negotiations.

Where is Nina in all this?

[I Miss Trudeau]

The Liberals say the tapes were altered; Grewal says not. 

No. Audio experts say the tapes were altered, Grewal says not. Try to be at least a little honest with yourself.

It's a messy situation and the worst, from the Tory perspective, is that the focus is no longer on Murphy or Dosanjh.

Thats because some idiot altered the tapes and gave Murphy and Dosanjh a free ride.

Any damn fool can burn down a barn but it takes someone smart to build one.

When is Harper going to quit burning his own barn and build something... anything?

After one top analyst raised doubts Thursday, the Tories released a few passages they said were mistakenly lost in digital transfer. But two of the excerpts that reappeared -- translated from Punjabi -- are embarrassing for Grewal because they show him asking Dosanjh for a reward:

Glitches have a habit of deleting the most embarassing phrases of one participant to the conversation, I'm sure. Of course, not even just a bit of the phrase, but the whole damn thing.

So, according to the final version, 1) Grewal was clearly fishing and 2) Murphy says PM PM won't go outside of politics (whatever that means).

Or, in other words, Grewal was trying to sell his vote and was turned down.

This is the sum total of the incriminating evidence in the supposed gaps.

For Grewal, the most incriminating evidence are the gaps themselves, regardless of what was in them.

Instead, many Canadians will latch onto the phrase "tampered tape" and dismiss the whole episode as political shenanigans.  IOW, most voters in Ontario do not want to hear that PM PM is a crook. 

What on earth are you talking about? You just can't resist the urge to throw in some completely irrelevant comment to score cheap political points, can you?

They will cling to any evidence that he's an OK guy, being maligned.  This is not because Paul Martin is a teflon politician, it is because these Ontario voters can no more imagine Harper as PM than Layton as PM.

Or maybe they've looked at the events of the last weeks and decided, with some justification, that the Liberals, all things considered, aren't much, if any, worse than the Conservatives.

But of course, the Conservatives are just fine, and any opposition to the Cons stems from the fact that everyone east of Winnipeg is an imbecile. Err, except for the enlightened voters of Quebec.

[The Terrible Sweal]

... IOW, most voters in Ontario do not want to hear that PM PM is a crook.

!!!!!! !!!!!!

What the fork are you talking about? The material you just reviewed at such length makes it very clear that nothing on the tapes suggest any crookedness on PM's part. Are you commending Ontarians on their reasonable judgement?

[The Terrible Sweal]

Perpetrating this tape fraud could qualify as a criminal offence.  It is certainly a civil tort.  I think this is a very important issue which is not getting enough attention.  It is time for Stephen Harper to answer some specific questions:

Who had the tapes for the almost two-weeks they were held back?   What was done to them during that time?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Offering someone a cabinet position and a chance to be in the seante to defect from their party is also illegal isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Offering a senate seat would be illegal, in my opinion. Refusing to give a senate seat, which is what happened here, is honest.

I think a cabinet seat is a different thing. Cabinet is the prme minister's complete discretion and has been used to make political compromises/deals from time immemorial. For example, putting your leadership convention opponents on your front bench is arguably just buying their vote.

[fellowtraveller]

A red herring. This entire discussion - whether Grewal was demanding posts or the Liberals offering perks is a political matter not a criminal one. Nor would it have made sense for the Liberals to immediately turn Grewal away because they needed the votes and they have every right to try to convince him to make the switch based on ethical terms.

It is far from a red herring.

An MP offering his vote in return for a reward of any type, or any person offering a reward in return for a vote, are both serious criminal offences. Any Minister or MP with knowledge of same who fails to act is also guilty of a crime.

A question I have is: why would Grewal release the tapes if he is guilty of soliciting a bribe? How does he personally or professionally benefit?

[Netherlands]

I think this development is the beginning of the end for Grewal. It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that this MP has been overrated in the intelligence department. If this news report is confirmed, more questions will be raised it is hard to imagine that the Conservatives will want him to remain.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

Tory Grewal in Airport Package Mystery

Monday, June 6, 2005 Updated at 4:05 PM EDT

Canadian Press

Ottawa — Air Canada is investigating an incident at Vancouver airport involving a Tory MP embroiled in a taping scandal.

Gurmant Grewal was spotted in a waiting area Saturday trying to get passengers to transport a package to Ottawa.

Airport sources won't confirm if there was a tape in the envelope the B.C. MP was trying to pass along.

“We can confirm that we are currently investigating an incident involving Mr. Grewal,” said Air Canada spokeswoman Laura Cooke.

“I have no additional information to provide on this matter at this point.”

Security regulations require any passenger must be on a plane carrying that person's luggage.

A source says Mr. Grewal was booked on a flight to Ottawa and passed through security to a waiting area, where he was overheard asking “a number of” passengers to transport the package.

Mr. Grewal turned over tapes last week to the RCMP from secret recordings he made in meetings with two top Liberals.

Several audio experts have agreed the tapes were altered, prompting the Conservatives to issue a statement admitting that small changes had been made to the recordings.

On the tapes, Mr. Grewal is overheard negotiating possible job opportunities with the Liberal party in exchange for his vote in a crucial confidence showdown last month.

Conservative spokesman Geoff Norquay said he was aware of Air Canada's allegation against Mr. Grewal and planned to make a statement later Monday.

Mr. Grewal did not respond to an e-mail request for an interview.