Canada's Liberals

[bigdude]

FYI I live in Canada.

Excellent for you. Now you know how to communicate a little better here.

All this nonsense about doctored tapes is an attempt to discredit what Dosanjh and Murphy said on the tapes which could lead to 14 years inprisonment.

Now this is NDP sleaze! Dosanj and Murphy broke no laws even going by the doctored tapes. On the other hand, you are skating pretty close to libel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The RCMP have the tapes, and they, and they alone will decide whether or not the tapes have been doctored.

What does the NDP have to do with our conversation?

I believe you are actually are a Liberal party member with your attempts to intimidate by threatening legal action. You are NOT fooling anyone here with that nonsense.

And read up on your criminal law before you start talking through your hat.

[bigdude]

Murphy and Dosanjh must go

 

The Gazette

Thursday, June 02, 2005

When is an offer not an offer? When is a private conversation not private? When is a transcript not a transcript? When is a defection really a sting operation? Or not? When is an independent ethics commissioner not independent? More than two weeks into the Gurmant Grewal tapes saga, Canadians still have far more questions than answers. And the one answer we do have, from Prime Minister Paul Martin, is merely an obfuscation, to put it kindly. It's time for somebody to pay for this disgraceful spectacle.

With more persistence than he generally shows on policy, Martin insists his Liberals did not make any offer to Grewal, a British Columbia Conservative MP. True, Martin's chief of staff and a top minister from B.C. did romance Grewal for hours, during the lead-up to that razor-close House of Commons vote on May 19. True, the main topic of those tedious hours of chat was the idea of Grewal and his wife, Nina, also an MP, crossing the floor or at least abstaining. True, Grewal was asking what would be in it for him.

The two Liberals, chief of staff Tim Murphy and Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh, tap-danced on the very edge of a precipice. So, for that matter, did Grewal, who insists this was only a "sting" operation and who has previously indulged in similar adventures in recording.

So you decide: Is Martin telling the truth, that no offer was made? Consider this Dosanjh quotation from the transcript: "You have to be able to say that I did not make a deal. That's very important. That's why these kinds of deals are not made in that fashion."

He also reminded Grewal that when Scott Brison crossed the floor, in 2003, he came as a backbencher and was promoted to cabinet only later. (And which came first for Belinda Stronach, we wonder, Martin's offer of a cabinet post or her commitment to become a Liberal?)

Dosanjh's response has been to challenge the integrity of the translation from Punjabi, the completeness of the transcript, and so on. We have fallen to this in Canadian politics.

We have also fallen, apparently, to the point where the PM's chief of staff can undertake to have Ethics Commissioner Bernard Shapiro, who is supposed to report to Parliament, not Martin, write some kind of "interim report" clearing Grewal in an unrelated investigation about visas.

This stinks. It's worth recalling this was all a simple sub-plot in the multi-billion-dollar Liberal effort to save their grasp on power, and that their grasp is weakened because of the sponsorship scandal, and that in that great supermarket of stench this is just one more tiny sharp smell.

But this one touches the cabinet and the PMO, and that won't do. Murphy needs to resign, or be fired, and Dosanjh needs to leave the cabinet. The ethics commissioner - for whatever he can still be worth - should look into this. So should the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, although they have always proved to be ultra-cautious when it comes to political investigations.

And when the election finally comes, voters in both Vancouver South (Dosanjh's riding) and Newton-North Delta (Grewal's) should ask themselves, and the incumbents, some hard questions about integrity and transparency.

Where is the honour here?

[bigdude]

from today's Macleans

The Tories say questions about tampering are a distraction from the real story: that top Liberal officials were trying to bribe Tories on the eve of a crucial vote.

They say the Liberal tactics could violate Criminal Code anti-corruption laws that carry penalties of 14 years maximum in prison.

"(It's) an attempt to discredit what was said on the tapes," said Tory deputy leader Peter MacKay.

"For proof as to whether the prime minister and the government are capable of this he only has to swivel his head in his seat and take a look at his cabinet.

"And take a look at the number who have crossed the floor for either cabinet positions or parliamentary secretary positions."

Two former Tories - Belinda Stronach and Scott Brison - now sit in the Liberal cabinet.

Sickening.

[Riverwind]

Consider this Dosanjh quotation from the transcript: "You have to be able to say that I did not make a deal. That's very important. That's why these kinds of deals are not made in that fashion."

The tapes make it clear that Murphy and Dosanj do not want to offer Grewal anything because he is not qualified. They are trying to string him along without promising anything. In addition, from Murphy and Donsanjs perspective they see Grewal as an unprinicpaled opportunist so they treat him like one.

That said, it is still pretty unethical behavoir. They should have told him to take a hike.

He also reminded Grewal that when Scott Brison crossed the floor, in 2003, he came as a backbencher and was promoted to cabinet only later. (And which came first for Belinda Stronach, we wonder, Martin's offer of a cabinet post or her commitment to become a Liberal?).

Stronachs promotion to cabinet made perfect sense - she is a high profile MP and she was put in charge of a portfolio that really needed an outsider to handle. It is rediculous to suggest that there was something nefarious about her appointment.

Morever, this happens all the time in industry - one company will hire away an executive from another company by offering an attractive position. It is considered completely ethical unless the executive leave does something dishonest like stealing trade secrets or customer lists.

We have also fallen, apparently, to the point where the PM's chief of staff can undertake to have Ethics Commissioner Bernard Shapiro, who is supposed to report to Parliament, not Martin, write some kind of "interim report" clearing Grewal in an unrelated investigation about visas..?.

Getting a interim report does not at all imply that it would exonorate Grewal. All that was suggested that they might ask the ethics commisioner to release something sooner than later in the hope that the ethics commisioner would exonorate Grewal. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

[bigdude]

Martin to push same-sex bill

If passed as expected, Canada would join a vanguard of gay marriage-friendly nations that includes only Belgium and the Netherlands.

Prime Minister Paul Martin says it's essential that the legislation clear the House -- even if MPs must stay later than June 23, the last scheduled day for this sitting.

"There's no doubt that . . . it's legislation that must pass," Martin said. "And we want it to pass. And parliamentarians are here to do the job."

It's more likely that the Liberals, supported by most NDP and Bloc Quebecois MPs, will cut off debate rather than extend the House sitting.

Right on!

[The Terrible Sweal]

Now this is NDP sleaze!  Dosanj and Murphy broke no laws even going by the doctored tapes.  On the other hand, you are skating pretty close to libel.

What does the NDP have to do with our conversation?

You are an NDP supporter, are you not?

I believe you are actually are a Liberal party member ...

I've already told you I'm not.

...with your attempts to intimidate by threatening legal action.

Is it foolishness, or is it dishonesty which leads you to make obviously untrue statements? I've not threatened any legal action at all. Please try to stick with reality.

And read up on your criminal law before you start talking through your hat. 

You think I've got somerhing wrong? Then be specific, and we'll see who talks thru his hat.

[bigdude]

Liberal MP calls for Dosanjh & Murphy to step aside.

How sad to see our Canadian prime minister stoop as low as this!

Article

A senior Liberal MP wants the Prime Minister's chief of staff, Tim Murphy, and Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh suspended from their posts until an investigation takes place into the growing scandal over the secretly taped negotiations between the two men and a Tory MP who was considering crossing the floor.

Sarnia MP Roger Gallaway says the situation is "totally odious" and "it shows the underbelly of politics that I think is quite unacceptable."

"[Conservative Leader Stephen Harper] will have to deal with [Tory MP Gurmant Grewal, who made the tapes], but we have to deal with our own," Mr. Gallaway said. "The use of the words 'Senate' and 'foreign posting,' even if no offer was made, is totally odious. There are several MPs who are remaining silent but who think Murphy and Dosanjh have crossed the threshold of acceptable political discourse."

Mr. Gallaway was referring to the taped discussions between the three men just before the no-confidence vote on the budget two weeks ago.

"It just makes my skin crawl," Mr. Gallaway said. He said he is receiving telephone calls from concerned constituents.

He said they are telling him that "this is now not about us or them, it's about the whole place." He says the affair could put Parliament "in total disrepute."

Several other Liberal MPs say off the record that the two senior Liberals should step aside until an investigation takes place.

"What I've had people say, too, is that until you clear the air, everybody should step back," one MP said of what he has been hearing from constituents.

Another senior Liberal MP in effect dared the PM to suspend the two men: "If the Prime Minister feels it is necessary for his Minister of Health and his chief of staff to step aside, then he should do it. If he remains silent about it, it means he really doesn't have any concerns about it."

But the MP is not optimistic.

"The bar is so low now. . . . Have you ever seen anything like this?

"Everybody gets away with stuff. It's just a joke."

[The Terrible Sweal]

Liberal MP calls for Dosanjh & Murphy to step aside.

How sad to see our Canadian prime minister stoop as low as this! 

What exactly do you allege the PM has done?

[bigdude]

L'affaire Grewal

More calls for Martin to suspend Dosanjh & Murphy.

These tapes have revealed to Canadians the terrible truth that no one wanted to believe about our prime minister, and will do more to damage his political career than even the Gomery commission. No wonder PM Martin is making such a huge effort to discredit these tapes. :angry:

[Riverwind]

These tapes have revealed to Canadians the terrible truth that no one wanted to believe about our prime minister, and will do more to damage his political career than even the Gomery commission.  No wonder PM Martin is making such a huge effort to discredit these tapes. :angry:

It was several independent media organizations that raised questions about the edits. If it was just the Liberals then everybody would ignore the compliants. I listened to one clip of the tape where the flow of a single sentence by Dosanj is disjoint and it really sounds like three seperate statements were pasted together into a single statement. This is the statement where Donsanj says 'cabinet right away is possible'.

It is unfair to judge Donsanj or Murphy without the complete context for the things that they said. Especially if there is reasonable suspicion that the Conservatives directly manipulated the tape. If these two had truely done something unethical then the Conservatives would nothave needed to edit the tapes - they would have released the originals immediately.

[bigdude]

Nonsense.

This tape doctoring scenario is being orchestrated by the Liberals to discredit what was said on the tapes. The tapes in their entirety are now up on Grewal's website and all these so-called glitches are just technicial glitches in the transfer to CD process.

PM Martin is going to go down in flames over this.

[bigdude]

The Layton New Democrats' call for the Commons Ethics Commissioner to investigate has been accepted and it is now official:

Grewal and Dosanjh are now the subject of an official investigation by the Commons Ethics Commissioner.

[Riverwind]

The Layton New Democrats' call for the Commons Ethics Commissioner to investigate has been accepted and it is now official:

Grewal and Dosanjh are now the subject of an official investigation by the Commons Ethics Commissioner. 

So. Just because there was grounds to believe something was unethical does not mean it actually is. Sgro was vilified by the opposition only to be cleared once an objective person looked at the evidence.

[bigdude]

The Layton New Democrats' call for the Commons Ethics Commissioner to investigate has been accepted and it is now official:

Grewal and Dosanjh are now the subject of an official investigation by the Commons Ethics Commissioner. 

So. Just because there was grounds to believe something was unethical does not mean it actually is. Sgro was vilified by the opposition only to be cleared once an objective person looked at the evidence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except this time all Canadians have heard the despicable behaviour on the tapes!

[Riverwind]

Except this time all Canadians have heard the despicable behaviour on the tapes!

Tapes that have been doctored by the conservatives.

[bigdude]

Except this time all Canadians have heard the despicable behaviour on the tapes!

Tapes that have been doctored by the conservatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I see you are prepared to let the Liberals off the hook because you like or support them, but condemn the Conservatives without any investigation by the proper authorities whatsoever. Typical lynch mob mentality that supposedly went out of style in Canada a long time ago. And you probably profess to believe in democracy as well.

[bigdude]

- from one of your so-called tape experts:

Conservatives say the gap occurred when the master tape was transferred to CD. Mr. Pausak acknowledged “it is possible” such a transfer process could produce the gap.

“If it was done on purpose or by accident, I have no idea,” said Mr. Pausak.

You liberal party members or supporters need to slow down and take a deep breath, eh!

[Riverwind]

Oh I see you are prepared to let the Liberals off the hook because you like or support them, but condemn the Conservatives without any investigation by the proper authorities whatsoever. Typical lynch mob mentality that supposedly went out of style in Canada a long time ago. And you probably profess to believe in democracy as well. 

The lynch mob mentality is alive and well in this country and its leaders are sitting on the CPC benches in parliament. I have no problem criticizing Liberals when that criticism is deserved (and in many cases it is). What drives me up the wall and around the corner are the self righteous hypocrites in the Conservatives that exaggerate and fabricate claims of corruption in order to promote their own agenda.

Anyone who believes that the CPC would not have engaged in similar deal making if the situation was reversed is incredibly naive.

[August1991]

Anyone who believes that the CPC would not have engaged in similar deal making if the situation was reversed is incredibly naive.

The CPC leadership was in exactly the same position as the Liberal leadership - one vote either way determined the result. Yet there is no evidence anywhere of Harper offering anything except what he told Cadman - a fair run at the nomination and access to central party funds.

The Liberal Party of Canada has a long and glorious history of patronage. That is what the Gomery Commission is all about, by the way.

Gawd, how many times does this need to be said. People just don't get it. The system is fundamentally broken.

[Riverwind]

Anyone who believes that the CPC would not have engaged in similar deal making if the situation was reversed is incredibly naive.

The CPC leadership was in exactly the same position as the Liberal leadership - one vote either way determined the result. Yet there is no evidence anywhere of Harper offering anything except what he told Cadman - a fair run at the nomination and access to central party funds.

The CPC as opposition is not the same as CPC as gov't. As opposition they could afford to wait since the poll numbers showed that an election victory for them was not a sure thing. Even if they believed they would win an election they could still afford to wait so they had absolutely no need to make deals. It is easy to look pure if you have nothing to lose.

If a CPC minority gov't was facing defeat the CPC would make similar deals to stay in power. This is human nature - no one who believes in what they are doing and feels they are be being unfairly attacked by critics will give up so easily. What the Liberals tried to do was in a ethical grey area so painting it as some massive case of dishonesty is unresonable.

[Riverwind]

Gawd, how many times does this need to be said.  People just don't get it.  The system is fundamentally broken.

August, I posted this question for you could you please answer it:

Please explain why it is OK for Quebequers to vote for a sovereigntist party that cannot be part of any government and then blame Ontario for not voting out the Liberals.

If Quebequers want the Liberals out then they should vote for a party that can boot them out. If you answer is, Quebequers can't vote Conservative because they do not represent Quebec's interest then please explain why Ontario should vote for a party that does not represent Ontario's interest?

Is it because Ontario has the duty to 'save' the country while Quebequers who claim to have affection for Canada sit back and do nothing by voting for a party that wants to destroy the system?

[bigdude]

"Isn't the real reason the minister of health and the prime minister's chief of staff remain is because they were simply acting on the prime minister's instructions to do whatever was necessary to save his corrupt government?"

[bigdude]

"Why hasn't the let's-make-a-deal prime minister fired his chief of staff for even attempting to manipulate an officer of parliament?"

[bigdude]

"The prime minister's chief of staff and his minister of health are caught red-handed acting as agents trying to buy Tory votes to save a corrupt government,"

The above three quotes are taken from today's Globe. I think they will resonate with a lot of Canadians.

[Riverwind]

In the tapes, you can hear the Liberals trying not to break it. They want Gurmant Grewal to help them out so they can stay in power and pass their program. Maybe if he does, they'll just brush his ambitions off, as they have with others in the past. That would be cold-hearted and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's how the system works, even more so in a minority pressure cooker.

Also a quote from today's G&M.