Canada's Conservatives

[bigdude]

Harper, caucus split on secret tape furor

How in the world do these people ever aspire to becoming our national government with headlines like this? Maybe the press actually is biased against them.

[bigdude]

Dosanjh has suggested that Harper had a role in alterating the tapes. If this turns out to be true will this effectively end Harper's career and will the Conservatives become a rump party?

Article

[Riverwind]

Dosanjh has suggested that Harper had a role in alterating the tapes. If this turns out to be true will this effectively end Harper's career and will the Conservatives become a rump party?

Probably not.

[bigdude]

Combining the above, with allowing the Christian right to take over many of the recent party nominations, will at least spell a real serious disaster for the Conservatives in the next election:

Why Stephen Harper is going to lose more sleep

[ScottBrison]

Dosanjh has suggested that Harper had a role in alterating the tapes. If this turns out to be true will this effectively end Harper's career and will the Conservatives become a rump party?

Article

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is true, you know how I know?

Harper said it wasn't.

that's all the proof I need.

[bigdude]

Nonsense.

I just listened to the CBC tape expert who said what people have been listening to, including the tape experts, are a tape of a tape, and that we will never know for certain that the tapes were altered. Like we are going to take Dosanjh's word for it, right! The reason Dosanjh has suggested it is because it will never be proven.

So let's lose the hype, eh!

[Riverwind]

The reason Dosanjh has suggested it is because it will never be proven.

The reason he suggested it because he heard his own words taken out of context and heard seperate statements spliced in to one.

That said, the conservatives could have avoided such accusations if they released the tapes immediately instead of waiting 13 days. They still have not explained why it took so long to release them.

[bigdude]

Give it a break.

There were weekends involved and there were translation issues to deal with.

So far all we have to go on is Liberal hype that the tapes have been altered.

[Riverwind]

There were weekends involved and there were translation issues to deal with.

So far all we have to go on is Liberal hype that the tapes have been altered

It took most of the press and the Liberals less than a day to verify the translation and the transcriptions. There are at least two different audio experts hired by media organizations that say there is evidence of alteration. Whether the alteration is signficant is unknown. But that fact that there are any alternations at all stinks.

[newbie]

Try this link. This guy is a forensic audio engineer.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...apes050602.html

I'll take his word over any MP.

[bigdude]

And there are other experts who say differently, as I just heard one on radio one.

Since when are the MSM unbiased observers, eh!

[The Terrible Sweal]

There were weekends involved and there were translation issues to deal with.

So far all we have to go on is Liberal hype that the tapes have been altered.

So this is NDP ethics, is it? Piling on to a bandwagon of bribe-seeking and fraudulent tapes? Marvellous. Nothing like the high road, eh?

Weekends and translations? No one needed the CPC to provide a translation! And 13 DAYS of weekend? Crap. It takes about 4.5 hours to copy 4 hours of tapes. It takes two minutes to call a newspaper and another 45 minutes to send a reporter out to collect them.

The moment the dumbies refused to relase the tapes it was obvious that they were knee deep in tory sleaze. If the NDP wants to cosy up to these kinds of criminal tactics, they might as well cut their own throats. All the NDP has going for it is the high road, so they better watch their step.

[newbie]

From bigdude:

"And there are other experts who say differently, as I just heard one on radio one.

Since when are the MSM unbiased observers, eh!"

Well, I guess we're going to believe what we want to believe. This guy, John Dooher, was convincing though. He actually showed on TV the spikes on the frequency range where editing was done on Grewal's tape. He compared background noise as well. It too varied when the edit happened. Like I said, he was very convincing.

[bigdude]

- moved response to the Liberal thread where it belongs.

[Riverwind]

The reality is the Gomery commiossion has severely damaged you Liberals  and you are desperate to find an escape route. You are grasping at straws here.

There are several ethical breaches in thie Grewal tape affair:

1) The conservatives alterning the tapes to manipulate public opinion. This is yet to be shown but there is enough evidence to be very suspicious.

2) Grewal actively offering his vote in return for services. He claims it was a 'sting' but has provided no evidence to support that. However, logic suggests that Grewal was the one who intiated the discusions.

3) Murphy and Donsanj hinting a reward in return for Grewal's absention. No specific reward was promised, however, rewarding and punishing cacus members in order to ensure party loyalty is the way our parlimentary system works (whether you like ot or not). The tapes suggest that Murphy and Donsanj thought that Grewal had no chance of getting anything more than a parlimentary secretary position. More likely he would have gotten some committe work.

4) Martin doing a 'Clinton' by claiming that there was no deal when clearly they were trying to have an 'understanding'.

I listed them in order of seriousness with 1) being the most serious ethical breach.

That said: none of this excuses the Gomery mess, however, it shows that the Conservatives are hypocrites when they try to claim the moral high ground.

[The Terrible Sweal]

The NDP wanted it investigated like most appropriate Canadian citizens do, and the NDP are the only federalist party with any credibility at all on this issue.

For now, but if you keep supporting doctored tapes you'll hang yourselves.

The reality is the Gomery commission has severely damaged you Liberals  ...

I'm not a Liberal.

[bigdude]

Harper backs Grewal as ethics probe starts

And while Mr. Harper stood by Mr. Grewal, the deputy leader of the Conservatives, Peter MacKay, avoided expressing confidence in Mr. Grewal or the recordings.

"Look, I'm not putting my faith in anyone in this entire matter," he said. "I'm not here defending anybody's veracity or whether the tapes are pristine."

Interesting turn of events - sure looks like there is some kind of division in the Tory Caucus.

[bigdude]

I am wondering if this division in the Tory Caucus has a bit more to it than what has been reported so far.

Is this Peter MacKay's first shot across Harper's bow in a challenge for the Conservative leadership?

[cybercoma]

Harper backs Grewal as ethics probe starts

And while Mr. Harper stood by Mr. Grewal, the deputy leader of the Conservatives, Peter MacKay, avoided expressing confidence in Mr. Grewal or the recordings.

"Look, I'm not putting my faith in anyone in this entire matter," he said. "I'm not here defending anybody's veracity or whether the tapes are pristine."

Interesting turn of events - sure looks like there is some kind of division in the Tory Caucus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank God Peter MacKay has a lick of sense...this whole issue is idiotic.

[bigdude]

Grewal takes leave amid new scandal

This Grewal story just seems to get crazier and crazier!

[Argus]

The NDP wanted it investigated like most appropriate Canadian citizens do, and the NDP are the only federalist party with any credibility at all on this issue.

For now, but if you keep supporting doctored tapes you'll hang yourselves.

The reality is the Gomery commission has severely damaged you Liberals  ...

I'm not a Liberal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You just vote for them.

[Argus]

The reason Dosanjh has suggested it is because it will never be proven.

The reason he suggested it because he heard his own words taken out of context and heard seperate statements spliced in to one.

That said, the conservatives could have avoided such accusations if they released the tapes immediately instead of waiting 13 days. They still have not explained why it took so long to release them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NO ONE - at least no one with a shred of credibility - has suggested that there was seperate statements spliced together. At worst what was done was to pick out the juciest parts, the ones which make the Liberals look worst, and release them without the extraneous and unimportant material (and of course, the material that made Grewal look bad)

And it's kind of hard to believe Dosanjhs and Murphy's words were taken out of context given their nature and the length of the conversation which was played - the one in English, that is.

[The Terrible Sweal]

I'm not a Liberal.

You just vote for them.

Actually I've voted Liberal only once in the last dozen or so times.

NO ONE - at least no one with a shred of credibility - has suggested that there was seperate statements spliced together.

Funny place to hang your hat. What has been said is sections have been cut and/or moved. That's bad enough to be fraud all on it's own.

At worst what was done was to pick out the juciest parts, the ones which make the Liberals look worst, and release them without the extraneous and unimportant material (and of course, the material that made Grewal look bad)

False. That type of sleazy tactic is what they seemed to do at first. Then it came out that they topped that distortion with ouright deceptions.

[Argus]

You just vote for them.

Actually I've voted Liberal only once in the last dozen or so times.

Well, you've referred unflatteringly to the NDP, and certainly you hate the Tories. And you've been one of the strongest defenders of the Liberals on this site. So I think putting you into their camp is reasonable.

At worst what was done was to pick out the juciest parts, the ones which make the Liberals look worst, and release them without the extraneous and unimportant material (and of course, the material that made Grewal look bad)

False. That type of sleazy tactic is what they seemed to do at first. Then it came out that they topped that distortion with ouright deceptions.

Words without meaning.

[The Terrible Sweal]

... you've referred unflatteringly to the NDP, and certainly you hate the Tories. And you've been one of the strongest defenders of the Liberals on this site.

I simply oppose false and unethical accusations in general.

... That type of sleazy tactic is what they seemed to do at first.  Then it came out that they topped that distortion with ouright deceptions.

Words without meaning.

Oh yeah. Try these word then: Who made the false transcripts? Who doctored the tapes? Why did the tories defend 14 vital missing minutes as 'minor copying problems'? What did the CPC leadership know about the edits? Since the tape fraud has now been exposed, why haven't the tories retracted the false accusations?

What is clear is that the Conservatives have a major integrity problem. What remains to be seen is how high up it goes.