Terry Schiavo

[Shakeyhands]

That's fitting for a leader who stole millions from his country.

I suppose we should call Chretien a "fu*king hypocrite" as well since he did things like promise to eliminate the GST... then didn't. That seems more "fu*king hypocritical" than anything Bush has done.

I think the fact that Bush passed a law as governor allowing hospitals and medical facilities to "pull the plug" on patients with no hope of recovery and who could no longer afford treatment is proof of his hypocrisy. Ditto brother Jeb, who signed the law in 1999 that added feeding tubes to the list of "extraordinary measures" that people could discontinue in such cases.

So would the Bush bros. be wrong in intervening in a case where a family wanted to remove the feeding tube from a quadriplegic like Christopher Reeve or someone like Stephen Hawking?

Two things... I seem to remember some insinuating that a Mr Mulroney (you remember him, he brought in the GST in the first place..) had some dealings that weren't above board with Airbus I believe it was... Seemed he was a trifle miffed about that too...

As far as your point about comparing the Schiavo case with either a Reeve situation (quadrapilegic) or a Hawking (Lou Gehrig's disease) its assinine. Period.

There is a HUGE difference, this woman is in a vegetative state and has been since the IRREVERSABLE brain damage she received when her heart stopped for a period of time 15 years ago. The damaged parts of her brain have since been replace with Spinal fluid ....

See pictures a bit down this page

There is no one home... and the lights are not on either.

Let the poor woman go.

[caesar]

Whichever, it is clear the husband is acting out of a conscientious beleif about what Terri would have wanted. I think it's quite noble of him to ppursue this case out of conscienciousness when he could so easily have abandonned her.

Unfortunately, that is NOT clear. There was a lawsuit against a diet pill manufacture; who is paying Terri's bills??? Has he already hired an agent to sell his story. Seems to be the thing to do down in the USA.

Husbands and wives come and go; there is only one mother who delivered that child and one father. I wonder if this is now a fight of wills between the two sides. There have been too many people who have been declared brain dead who have revived and are leading normal lives. Two on Larry King tonight.

[caesar]

August 1992:

Terri Schiavo is awarded $250,000 US in an out-of-court malpractice settlement with one of her doctors.

November 1992:

Terri Schiavo's husband Michael Schiavo wins a malpractice case against another of Terri's doctors. He is awarded about $750,000 US for her care and about $300,000 US for himself.

That is one million three hundred reasons for letting her die and save these settlements for himself.

She is only on a feeding tube; not on any elaborate expensive ventilators.

[I Miss Trudeau]

There have been too many people who have been declared brain dead who have revived and are leading normal lives.  Two on Larry King tonight.

She isn't brain dead in the sense you speak of. She has no brain. Its spinal fluid. I will guarantee you that the people on Larry King did not regrow their brains from spinal fluid.

[caesar]

That's not the information that I have heard. The pictures show that there is still a fair portion of grey matter left. These people on the show were declared to be in the same vegetative state; they are now doing very well; walking and talking and living a normal life.

One had the feeding tube inserted without anaesthetic as they claimed she could feel no pain; she knew what was happening and felt it; she just couldn't communicate in any way. Starving to death could be very painful. I believe that it should be a family decision; not just one individual; and blood speaks louder than water.

I believe her husband did the right thing in going on with his life but in doing so; the parents should have a right to be equal rights in any decision affecting their daughter.\

There are many questions that I still have. The timing between when Michael decided to allow her to die and when he found his new lady. Has anyone in the family tried to help Terri with physical therapy, etc. Has anyone tried to get her to eat on her own. What has been done to stimulate her. It seems that she has been not given much stimulation (no tv or radio; have they played music for her?)

[The Terrible Sweal]

Whichever, it is clear the husband is acting out of a conscientious beleif about what Terri would have wanted. I think it's quite noble of him to ppursue this case out of conscienciousness when he could so easily have abandonned her.

Unfortunately, that is NOT clear.

It's been clear to several courts that Terri would have wanted to be let go. It's therefore clear that the husband has been pursuing her wishes.

Your allusion to a monetary windfall is, in the absense of any valid basis to impugn the husband's motives, merely scurrilous.

[kimmy]

On the husband's financial motives: he has been offered a million dollars to simply sign over guardianship of Terri; he refused. I think that is all the response needed to the accusation that he's just after the money.

  That's not the information that I have heard. The pictures show that there is still a fair portion of grey matter left.

caesar, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. I actually *do* have some idea what I'm talking about, as I have been attending a neuroanatomy class this winter. And while this doesn't make me a neurosurgeon or anything, it does at least give me an idea of how a brain is put together and how a brain is supposed to work. Of the ideas floating around in discussions about Terri, and her chances of recovery, it's obvious that a lot of these ideas are coming from people who *don't* have any idea how a brain is put together or how it is supposed to work.

Let's have a look. First, here's the CT of Terri's brain. We're going to refer back to this often:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/images/schiav...avo_ct_scan.jpg

So, what actually are we looking at? The bright white stuff is bone. The dark blue with no features in it is fluid. The lighter blue is soft tissue. Some of it is neural tissue (grey or white matter) and some of it is connective tissue (veins and the membranes that cover the brain-- the meninges, primarily what's called "dura mater".) While it is hard to tell soft tissue apart, the central fissure of the brain is clearly visible: it's the light blue line between the hemispheres in Terri's brain. The central fissure is line with dura mater, so it appears that the connective tissue shows up lighter than the neural tissue in the CT.

The problem with a CT scan is that they are very good for bones, and not very good at telling soft tissue apart. That's why some people feel that an MRI scan would give a better indication of how damaged Terri's brain is. The truth is, while an MRI would give a better indication of how destroyed Terri's brain is, the CT shows enough to know that it's pretty darn destroyed.

First off, the most obvious feature of Terri's CT scan is the huge "blobs" right in the middle. Those "blobs" are the lateral ventricles. In a healthy brain, these are narrow wedges when seen from the top (from the side, they look kind of like the letter "C"). In Terri's brain, they're swollen to several times their normal size. The little white thing in the middle of Terri's right ventricle is a piece of hard material; I am assuming it is some portion of the thalamic implant mentioned in the blog that makes it impossible for Terri to have an MRI.

The grotesque size of the ventricles is evidence of how much brain tissue is missing. But what kind of tissue? Grey matter or white matter? Actually, it doesn't really matter: either way, she's suffered huge amount of damage: if it was grey matter, she's simply lost the mental capabilities associated with that portion of the grey matter. If it was the white matter, then the connecting pathways in her brain have been lost; whatever grey matter was associated with the lost white matter is now disconnected.

Here's a picture contrasting a healthy brain (click here for image) with an infant who has suffered leukemia that has resulted in the death of brain tissue. Note how narrow the ventricles are in the healthy adult brain as compared to the ventricles in Terri Schiavo's brain. Terri's brain looks a lot like the poor infant whose brain is here in picture 2. As the body removes dead brain tissue, cerebrospinal fluid fills the empty space... this is also what has happened in Terri's case.

We can learn more from the CT scan by looking at the edges of the brain close to the skull. From the picture of the healthy brain, we can see the little grooves at the outside of the brain are narrow and tight. And on Terri's brain, we see that they are huge and wide and spread out. There's big lakes of fluid instead of little grooves. This *IS* evidence of how much grey matter Terri has lost. The surface that those grooves are formed in is the grey matter. In particular, look at her frontal lobe: in Terri's brain, the gray matter has shrivelled so badly that there's nothing but fluid where the grey matter of the frontal lobe is supposed to be. Similar atrophy is clearly visible on the sides, around what used to be Terri's temporal lobes-- in the healthy brain, the groove between the temporal lobe and the parietal lobe is tight, and in Terri's brain it's all fluid. There's just nothing there.

The CT clearly does show that parts of Terri's brain that are responsible for things like personality, thought, and language comprehension are simply *not there anymore.*

Now, maybe you saw a TV show where they had people who had been declared vegitative, but if they were there talking, they had functioning frontal lobes and temporal lobes. Terri doesn't. She never will. The ability to heal or regenerate those part of the central nervous system is simply beyond medical science.

-kimmy

{and on Chretien: if applying the "Shawinigan handshake" to the throat of a homeless protester doesn't make you a scumbag, then what does? If ordering the pepperspraying of university students, then joking about it later doesn't make you a scumbag, then what does?}

[I miss Reagan]

It's been clear to several courts that Terri would have wanted to be let go. It's therefore clear that the husband has been pursuing her wishes.

This is why I agree with the decision to remove the feeding tube. Ultimately, in the eyes of the law, the spouse is the authority on the wishes of the patient and I think in most cases this is how it should be. Although Kimmy has provided some good insight in to her condition, questions still remain for me. If she is indeed a vegitable why are her eyes open and why does she appear to react to people. And if she is in a vegitative state she is not suffering so why pull the tube?

[kimmy]

If she is indeed a vegitable why are her eyes open and why does she appear to react to people.

Terri's activity has been said by some doctors to be merely brain-stem activity.

Time for more brain talk.

The stuff you do when you're awake tends to be associated with the cerebral cortex: the large thing that occupies most of your skull. That's divided into a number of sections, with abilities roughly associated with each part:

-frontal lobe: thinking, reasoning, creativity, logic, personality, and other stuff.

-temporal lobe: language comprehension and speaking, memory

-parietal lobe: sensory processing and conscious motor control

-occipital lobe: processing of visual information.

-limbic lobe: basic drives ("hungry", "horny", "happy", "mad", "scared"... basically, animal-level reaction.)

Even dogs and cats have all of this to some extent (though obviously a little light on the frontal and temporal lobe functions. )

Ok, so why don't you stop breathing when you go to sleep? What is it that drives the muscles that move last night's Taco Grande through your intestine? Meet the brainstem.

The brainstem basically has two roles. First off, it's the "wiring box" for your brain. All those connections between the cerebrum and the rest of your body are all made through the brainstem. There's a lot of complicated circuitry.

And secondly (and more importantly, in Terri's case) there is the reticular formation. The reticular formation has a number of functions. It keeps you breathing, even if you forget to breath. It can accelerate or slow your heart-rate. If you're standing up, it innervates the proper muscles to keep you from falling down or tipping over. Researchers have found that cats who have had their cerebrums removed are still able to walk or run if put on a treadmill and even stand up if they've been tipped over.

All of your senses connect to your nervous system through the brain-stem through the 12 pairs of cranial nerves. The muscles that move your eyes side to side, up and down, dilated or constrict your pupils, and open and close your eyelids connect to the brainstem through the cranial nerves. The muscles that move your tongue, jaw, and enable you to swallow connect to your brainstem through the cranial nerves.

If Terri can breathe on her own, then it sounds like her brainstem and reticular formation are ok. So there's how she can move her eyes around, swallow if you put something down her throat, and so on. That doesn't mean there's a person in there. It just shows that some of the hardware is still connected.

She would also probably jerk her hand away if you jabbed it with a pin, or grab your finger if you touched her palm. But those are simple spinal reflexes-- they'd work the same way if her head were cut clean off.

I'm just trying to offer some information about what is and isn't working in Terri's nervous system. You're free to evaluate that information however you wish. The question of what makes a person a person is not cut and dried, but I do believe the medical information is pretty straightforward.

-kimmy

[I miss Reagan]

Thanks, this is pretty interesting stuff.

But does she feel pain? is she suffering? If she isn't there at all anymore there isn't any point in keeping her alive. But by the same reasoning there is no reason for her husband to insist that she die, because she isn't suffering.

[Guest eureka]

Kimmy. you should not have tied "scumbag" into your essay on the brain which, by the way, was most interesting. To do so suggests a little aberration in your frontal lobe.

[I Miss Trudeau]

If she is indeed a vegitable why are her eyes open and why does she appear to react to people.

You know those damned muppet things that sing and dance when you walk by them in a store? They react to people to.

I don't intend to sound snarky, but thats really the best and shortest way I could think of to illustrate my point.

At any rate, Kimmy summed it up nicely.

[caesar]

I'm just trying to offer some information about what is and isn't working in Terri's nervous system. You're free to evaluate that information however you wish. The question of what makes a person a person is not cut and dried, but I do believe the medical information is pretty straightforward.

That is the problem; it is not straightforward. There are different opinions by different doctors.

She has been fed jello successfully. Why will they not let the family give her water or jello???

[caesar]

caesar, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. I actually *do* have some idea what I'm talking about, as I have been attending a neuroanatomy class this winter. And while this doesn't make me a neurosurgeon or anything,

That information did come from a neurosurgeon.

[kimmy]

caesar, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. I actually *do* have some idea what I'm talking about, as I have been attending a neuroanatomy class this winter. And while this doesn't make me a neurosurgeon or anything,

That information did come from a neurosurgeon.

Bull.

-kimmy

[caesar]

Bull s to you to. Open your ears

[caesar]

Only after his mother's death in 1997 did Michael Schiavo tell his in-laws that on several occasions, his wife had said she would not want to be kept alive artificially. The timing of the revelation -- after he had won the malpractice money and begun dating Jodi Centonze, with whom he would eventually have two children -- made the Schindlers deeply suspicious, they say.

In 1998, when Michael Schiavo asked a court's permission to remove his wife's feeding tube, the Schindlers challenged him, necessitating a trial. That is when Michael and Scott Schiavo and their sister in-law, Joan Schiavo, testified that Terri Schiavo had told them never to prolong her life artificially.

Judge George Greer of Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court found the testimony constituted "clear and convincing" evidence of Terri Schiavo's wishes, and her feeding tube was removed in April 2001. But it was reconnected days later, after an ex-girlfriend of Michael Schiavo called a local radio station to say he had told her he had no idea whether his wife would have wanted life-prolonging measures.

[B. Max]

I think there is enough evidence now or at the very least suspicion to investigate just what exactly is going on here. Is the husband afraid that she will some day be able to tell people just what exactly happened leading up to her condition.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=43383

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/.../26/72807.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/...25/102508.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/.../25/93355.shtml

[kimmy]

Bull s to you to. Open your ears

caesar, the CT scan shows what it shows.

It is 100% true that there is still lots of grey matter. The brainstem I mentioned earlier has loads of grey matter.

It is 100% misleading to imply that that means she could recover.

There is grey matter in your spine. There is grey matter in little blobs located other places in your torso, too. Grey matter is simply nerve cell bodies. That's all it is. The term "grey matter" is used to differentiate nervous tissue between 2 kinds of nervous tissue.

"Grey matter" is areas that contain groups of nerve cell bodies. Grey matter can be in the brain or the spine, or in groups called "ganglia" inside your torso.

"White matter" is areas that contain axons, the long parts of nerve cells that carry signals to other places. These areas appear white when you look at them, because many of the axons are wrapped in tiny sheets of fat called myelin.

"Grey matter" is NOT a synonym for "BRAIN STUFF". If they cut off Terri's head, the grey matter in her spine is not going to just turn into a brain and start thinking. Nor is the grey matter in her brainstem going to turn into a brain and start thinking. Terri still has lots of grey matter, but none of it is in the areas that allow people to think or communicate.

Her cerebral cortex-- the part of the brain that separates mammals from earthworms-- has disappeared. That's shown clearly. NO neurologist would look at the CT scan and disagree.

If some neurologist says "she still has lots of grey matter", he is telling you something that is not a lie, and which makes uninformed people think that there is hope for her to recover. He knows that most people hear "grey matter" and immediately associate it with "BRAIN STUFF". He knows that people hear "she still has lots of grey matter" and they think "she still has lots of BRAIN STUFF" and they figure that means she has a chance of recovering.

But that neurologist, if he is being honest, will concede that her cerebral cortex is simply not there. He would concede that she's got no chance of ever having a personality or thinking. He would concede that some peoples' contention that therapy or "new techniques" could restore that capability is simply wishful thinking.

We can't even heal a few bundles of cells in the spinal cord. Why do people think that we could restore a whole brain???

This whole debate has really demonstrated how uninformed and gullible people can be. People grab onto any piece of information that suits their political views, because they don't have the knowledge to evaluate the facts for themselves. That's why the "Terri's Fight" side of the argument has been putting out meaningless comments like "she still has lots of grey matter!" for people to swallow. They know that they can throw out junk-science and meaningless factoids and most people simply don't know enough to weigh the merits. And the media doesn't know the right questions to ask to get meaningful answers.

Most peoples' understanding of these issues has been formed by years of bad television, sci-fi movies, and inane old wives tales like "we only use 10% of our brains!" (well, in your case, caesar, that 10% figure might not be far off the mark.)

You're out there looking for sound-bites to support your personal views. I've spent the past 3 months learning about this stuff in detail. Your ears are too open, and your brain's not open enough.

-kimmy

[The Terrible Sweal]

Thanks, this is pretty interesting stuff.

But does she feel pain? is she suffering? If she isn't there at all anymore there isn't any point in keeping her alive. But by the same reasoning there is no reason for her husband to insist that she die, because she isn't suffering.

The evidence is the SHE, Terri, would not have wished to continue in such a 'life'. Suffering is totally beside the point.

[The Terrible Sweal]

I think there is enough evidence now or at the very least suspicion to investigate just what exactly is going on here. Is the husband afraid that she will some day be able to tell people just what exactly happened leading up to her condition.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=43383

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/.../26/72807.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/...25/102508.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/.../25/93355.shtml

Worldnet Daily and Newsmax? Good god! Could you have found any less reliable sources?!

[B. Max]

I think there is enough evidence now or at the very least suspicion to investigate just what  exactly is going on here. Is the husband afraid that she will some day be able to tell people just what exactly happened leading up to her condition.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=43383

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/.../26/72807.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/...25/102508.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/.../25/93355.shtml

Worldnet Daily and Newsmax? Good god! Could you have found any less reliable sources?!

They are completely reliable. Just as we can always rely on you to shoot the messenger. The last refuge of a scoundrel.

[Tawasakm]

Kimmy, you should study psychology. You have the mindset for it. I encourage you to explore this avenue.

[caesar]

is 100% true that there is still lots of grey matter. The brainstem I mentioned earlier has loads of grey matter.

It is 100% misleading to imply that that means she could recover

It is not misleading. It is a long shot but others with the same or worse CT scans have survived.

The evidence is the SHE, Terri, would not have wished to continue in such a 'life'. Suffering is totally beside the point.

I would like to see this "evidence"; it all comes from the husband's side and not until after the cash settlement and his finding a new girlfriend that he even mention her wish to be kept off all types of life support. The lady is only on a feeding tube. This type of long drawn out death seems to be cruel and painful; for Terri's parents, for sure and quite possible Terri herself.

[I Miss Trudeau]

This type of long drawn out death seems to be cruel and painful

Which is precisely why euthanasia is preferable to it. Sadly, i9ts not an option.