The Terrible Sweal Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 The lady has parents that deserve a little more compassion and respect. Terri deserves better than a slow death by starvation and especially denial of water. Reciting your position over and over is not very persuasive. The courts say these are the woman's own wishes. How do you expect such matters can be resolved if you don't want the courts to do it? As for her eating jello, I'm curious where this information comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 She HAS been able to eat jello. She certainly could take in water or to have an icecube placed against her lips.Why the morphine if she feels no pain. EASY THERE CAESAR!!! The reasoon they are giving her morphine is supposedly to help regulate her breathing, it is not being used in a pain killing scenario. and swallowing (jello or water) is actually a higher brain function, one that Terri no longer has because.... well because that part of her brain is gone. And as far as your comments about Delays father go, people have been known to emerge from Comas but not from being vegetables... Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 I will admit to being arrogant, and perhaps even a twit, but I don't feel I'm ignorant. I've gone to great efforts to inform myself about many aspects of this issue. If the big difference between Tom DeLay and Michael Schiavo is that Tom DeLay unplugged a dialysis machine instead of a feed tube... that seems like a very tenuous distinction for calling one man a barbarian and murderer while calling the other a champion of life. Don't you think? As for Terri's parents, I do feel a lot of sympathy for them. I think the biggest tragedy in all of this is that this Dr Hammesfahr-- con-man, witch-doctor, medicine-man-- has taken such advantage of their vulnerability andfilled them with false hopes for so many years. Terri's soul has been gone for a long time, but because her body still clings to life, her parents have not been given a chance to accept that she's gone. I hope that when her heart finally stops beating they can go find the peace that they've been denied for much too long. I can related to them in a sense... one of my grandfathers died of an inoperable brain tumor that took a long time to finish him off. While he was going, he became increasingly helpless and demented. He said many paranoid and hateful things, particularly towards his childrens' spouses. And though watching him go was a painful and upsetting experience, at least we had the comfort of knowing that his fate was inevitable and that there would be closure. Dr Hammesfahr has denied the Schindlers even that much. The one thing that really strikes home for me in all of this is that when my number is up, I hope I go in a way that leaves no doubt. I hope my end is quick, decisive, final, and if necessary, really really gory, if that's what it takes to give my loved ones the peace that comes from letting go and moving on. I could not bear to think of having my loved ones huddled over a hospital bed for years and years wondering if maybe today was the day that I finally expired. -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Innneresting.... Schiavo Protesters Have Hearts on Sleeves and Anger on Signs No, we're not going to go home," said Bill Tierney, a young daughter at his side. "Terri is not dead until she's dead."Ms. Schiavo's father, Robert Schindler, said he had visited his daughter today and that she was very weak but still responding. "She is still showing facial expressions," Mr. Schindler told reporters. "I hug her and I kiss her, and she is reacting to that and she is trying to talk. But she is very, very subdued. She's failing but she is still with us, and she is showing a determination to live that is incredible," he said, speaking outside the hospice. Mr. Tierney, a former military intelligence officer in Iraq who works as a translator and investigator for private companies, cried as he talked about watching the Schiavo spectacle on television and feeling the utter need to be at the hospice. Spy World After explaining his various psychological tactics to the audience, interrogator Bill Tierney (a private contractor working with the Army) said, ''I tried to be nuanced and culturally aware. But the suspects didn't break.''Suddenly Tierney's temper rose. ''They did not break!'' he shouted. ''I'm here to win. I'm here so our civilization beats theirs! Now what are you willing to do to win?'' he asked, pointing to a woman in the front row. ''You are the interrogators, you are the ones who have to get the information from the Iraqis. What do you do? That word 'torture'. You immediately think, 'That's not me.' But are we litigating this war or fighting it?'' Some listeners murmured in assent; others sat in rapt attention. In all the recent debates about the Bush administration's stance on torture, this voice, the voice of the interrogators themselves, has been almost entirely absent. Asked about Abu Ghraib, Tierney said that for an interrogator, ''sadism is always right over the hill. You have to admit it. Don't fool yourself - there is a part of you that will say, 'This is fun.''' Atrios has more. In comments, Harold came upon some more Bill Tierney information.Here's what he told Sean Hannity on 3/24/03, according to the Freepi: Former weapons inspector Bill Tierney... said on the Sean Hannity radio show that we will be shocked with what we are going to find in Iraq. He has no doubt we will find huge amounts of what Iraq swears it does not have. In addition, Tierney said that he has told our government where Hussein has hidden an underground uranium plant. Tierney said "I can drive there with my eyes shut." Here's what he told Art Bell's replacement on Coast to Coast on 2/14/03: Tierney's methods of ascertaining this location were rather unconventional. "I would ask God and just get a sense if something was valid or not, and then know if I needed to pursue it," he said. His assessments through prayer were then confirmed to him by a friend's clairvoyant dream, where he was able to find the location on a map. "Everything she said lined up. This place meets the criteria," Tierney said of a power generator plant near the Tigris River that he believes is actually a cover for a secret uranium facility. It's a Phil Parlock redux! "Culture of life" indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Miss Trudeau Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/shia...w.ap/index.html But the legal tradition now separating Terri Schiavo from her parents' presumed protection also has a foundation in biblical law. In Genesis 2:24, it reads: "Therefore, a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh." What are the chances of the christian right ever understanding their own supposed faith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 The parents of Terri Schiavo have authorized a conservative direct-mailing firm to sell a list of their financial supporters, making it likely that thousands of strangers moved by her plight will receive a steady stream of solicitations from anti-abortion and conservative groups. Link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Jeb Bush was ready to send state troopers to defy court orders... St Louis Today columnist As first reported in the Tampa Tribune and St. Petersburg Times, and later in the Miami Herald, Pinellas Park police on duty at the hospice got word that state officers were en route to seize Schiavo and take her to a hospital for surgery to re-insert a feeding tube. The state agents "backed off," the Herald reported Saturday, after local police on duty at the hospice, backed by the Pinellas County Sheriff's Department, said they would prevent Schiavo's removal. The columnist had this thought on Jeb: Bush's long track record on these sorts of issues confirms the sincerity of his commitment, and you may share his belief that government has failed to protect Schiavo's rights. But there is a word for a public official who sets his personal creed above the rule of law and order he is sworn to uphold. The word is "extremist." (emphasis mine.) I think that is the whole issue in a nutshell. -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I miss Reagan Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Black Dog, We all know how much you hate religion, especially Evangelicals. It is obvious that, for you, this issue has nothing to do with the life of this woman but is just an excuse to spew your hatred towards Christians and the right. If you opened your eyes, and your mind, you would notice that this issue doesn't divide down religious/ non-religious or liberal/ conservative lines. According to a poll quoted on O'Reilly 60% of Evangelicals support the removal of the feeding tube. And while rightists like Kimmy and myself support the removal of the tube leftists like Caesar oppose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Terrible Sweal Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Black Dog,... It is obvious that, for you, this issue has nothing to do with the life of this woman but is just an excuse to spew your hatred towards Christians and the right. It's not obvious at all. Whereabouts has there been hatred directed at Christians here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I miss Reagan Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Black Dog,... It is obvious that, for you, this issue has nothing to do with the life of this woman but is just an excuse to spew your hatred towards Christians and the right. It's not obvious at all. Whereabouts has there been hatred directed at Christians here? Come on, you know that his theme on this thread is the same as the others with his "culture of life" jabs. He started right off by saying: As far as I'm concerened, this is just political grandstanding by the Republicans, who are trying to appeal to their pro-life base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 We all know how much you hate religion, especially Evangelicals. It is obvious that, for you, this issue has nothing to do with the life of this woman but is just an excuse to spew your hatred towards Christians and the right. Here's some things for you to chew on. -I've said before, but I suppose it must be said again, that my personal belief is that religious devotion is based on ignorance and misinformation. That being said, I don't really care what people believe so long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on others. For example, if someone believes that the earth is 6,000 years old and was created by God in seven days, I'll roll my eyes and think them fools, but that's about the end of it. But if they want to enshrine such nonsense in a high school science textbook, then the knives will come out. -The religious right in the United States, as personified by folks like Schindler supporter and anti-choice provocateur Randall Terry or Jerry Falwell, wants to use the coercive power of the state to impose their views on society, even though those views are antithetical to both conservative and Christian worldviews. The former promotes small government and individual freedom, the latter peace and tolerance. So all your whinging and crying about hatred of religion completely misses the point. The religous right is a political entity. My opposition to it and the contempt in which I hold its adherents is a political position. Hell, even some religious Republicans are uneasy with the influence of this constituency on public policy. EDIT Come on, you know that his theme on this thread is the same as the others with his "culture of life" jabs. He started right off by saying: As far as I'm concerened, this is just political grandstanding by the Republicans, who are trying to appeal to their pro-life base. How is it "hatred" to state the blindingly obvious? So what if a majority of Americans, even religious ones, oppose the efforts to keep Terri alive? The fact is, the majority of the "let Terri live" crowd are religious. As for the jabs at the culture of life, when I see an example of rank hypocrisy (like a former torturer shedding crocodile tears over the passion of the Terri), I'm gonna hold it up to the light. Don't blame me if you don't like what you see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Some more "culture of life" for you. Who is Randall Terry? Christian activist Randall Terry has reappeared in the news in recent days as the spokesman for the parents of Terri Schiavo. Terry, founder of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue and the Society for Truth and Justice, appeared on Fox News at least four times in the past four days -- on the March 18 edition of Hannity & Colmes, and during live coverage of the Schiavo case on March 20 and March 21. But Terry has a controversial past that was not fully disclosed in any of his Fox News appearances or on the March 19 edition of National Public Radio's Weekend Edition, which aired a brief clip from Terry. In all but one of those instances, Terry was identified only as the Schindler family spokesman. Only when Terry appeared on a March 21 "Fox News Alert" did another guest -- Fox News contributor and Democratic strategist Susan Estrich -- point out that Terry was "involved in the anti-abortion movement" and with Operation Rescue, which "operated outside the law." Christian right jumps into Terri Schiavo fray Terry was a leader in the anti-abortion movement’s campaign in the ’80s and early ’90s to put clinics out of business through intimidation, harassment and violence. In a 1995 speech, for example, Terry reportedly said of doctors who perform abortions, “When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you and we will execute you.” Oh, and speaking of hatred: "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."--Randall Terry, former leader of Operation Rescue and current spokesmen for Terri Schiavo's parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 leftists like Caesar oppose it. I my dear Kimmy am not a "leftist" thank you. I am a more balanced and do not appreciate the cold hearted money motivate extreme right that you adhere to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 The reasoon they are giving her morphine is supposedly to help regulate her breathing, it is not being used in a pain killing scenario.and swallowing (jello or water) is actually a higher brain function, one that Terri no longer has because.... well because that part of her brain is gone. Sorry but then I guess the "diagnosis is wrong as she has been able to eat jello and take water. As for your morphine to regulate her breathing???? that is a new one. It was said to regulate her body temperature or that she showed some discomfort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 And as far as your comments about Delays father go, people have been known to emerge from Comas but not from being vegetables... Sorry. And there again; you are wrong. There were 2 ladies on the Larry King show a few days ago that had been called vegetative. Although both still had some medical problems; they were very articulate and grateful that their families refuse to give up on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I was in the midst of posting a response and I see that Terri has passed. God Bless her and her family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 About time. That poor woman suffered enough without being used as a political prop. In the meantime... Thousands die in quake Darfur toll at least 300,000 This whole thing just goes to show that Stalin was bang on when he said "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 leftists like Caesar oppose it. I my dear Kimmy am not a "leftist" thank you. I am a more balanced and do not appreciate the cold hearted money motivate extreme right that you adhere to. That wasn't even my message you're responding to. If I'm considered "the extreme right" here, well, frankly that says a lot more about the hive-mind at Mapleleafweb than it says about me. If you think I'm speaking from a "cold hearted money motive" then I guess that either you've read nothing I've said, or you're being obtuse on purpose, or you're being obtuse because you just can't help it. Money motive? It's widely reported that a California businessman offered Michael Schiavo a million dollars to sign over custody of Terri to her parents, and Schiavo refused. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7150458/ Other such offers, including one for $10 million, had already been made and rejected by Michael Schiavo, said his attorney, George Felos. Does that sound like a guy who is motivated by money? If you really want to wonder at a "cold-hearted money motive", let's look again at Dr Hammesfahr and his private clinic, and the windfall of publicity that he has reaped thanks to preying on Terri's poor parents for the past several years. Desperate families will be beating down his door for years thanks to this. "He's the miracle man who could have saved Terri!" -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Sorry Kimmy; It was I miss Reagan; two peas from the same pod. I don't think this is a right/ left issue nor religious vs non religious. I think many of us neither vehemently oppose or agree fully with the removal of a feeding tube. I cannot agree with this slow drawn out death being very humane; I certainly would not allow my pets to die like that. How does not allowing ice to be put to her lips an acceptable procedure. I think if Michael had not dug in his heels and worked with her parents a more cordial decision could have been reached. I think he could at least cooperate on her funeral arrangements. Why does he not at least offer to allow them to bury half her ashes in the place of their own choosing?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I miss Reagan Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 About time. That poor woman suffered enough without being used as a political prop. I thought she was brain dead and couldn't suffer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Well, maybe she couldn't feel anything, but I don't think existing in a vegetative state is a fun thing to do for 15 years, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 What she could or couldn't feel is still a matter of debate. How here parents and sibling felt; was not. Michael's refusal to allow them to be there when she passed was mean. The funeral arrangements and burying her body away from them is another mean spirited act. Everything has gone Michael's way with little compassion to her blood relatives. I can understand that allowing a life to end when there is no hope and the patient is suffering; however, I do not feel this should be done on one person's consensus when there is no written record of the patient"s wishes. If nothing else, Michael is guilty of poor timing; making this "revelation" many years after her condition began but shortly after recieving a large settlement for malpractice (which would have been much smaller if she had been removed from so called "life support" earlier. His revelation, also, appears to have come to light shortly after he had decided it was time to move on with his life and found a new love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 What she could or couldn't feel is still a matter of debate. How here parents and sibling felt; was not. Michael's refusal to allow them to be there when she passed was mean. The funeral arrangements and burying her body away from them is another mean spirited act. Everything has gone Michael's way with little compassion to her blood relatives. I can understand that allowing a life to end when there is no hope and the patient is suffering; however, I do not feel this should be done on one person's consensus when there is no written record of the patient"s wishes. It was the Schindler's turned the whole affair into a spectacle. They were the one's appearing on TV, they were the ones aligning themselves with extremists, they were the ones allowing people to launch vicious attacks on Michael's motives. Above all, they were the one's who were trying to keep Taerri alive in spite of what her wishes were determined to be. Fact is, I have precious little sympathy for these people anymore. And I don't blame Michael for sharing such sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 It was their daughter and Michael's revelation very questionable. Possible both sides were lead on by the lawyer's who are raking in the really big bucks on both sides. It is a sad day for Terri. This matter should have been settled within the family and not turned into a 3 ringed circus. That took both sides and I will have to side with a mother but not really being there; it is just a general conclusion. Blood is thicker than water; husbands come and go easily, these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I miss Reagan Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Well, maybe she couldn't feel anything, but I don't think existing in a vegetative state is a fun thing to do for 15 years, do you? But she wasn't there at all according to the doctors. The lights were on but nobody was home, I thought. The autopsy will hopefully end the debate. I understand what Ceasar is saying, if Michael was compassionate he would have given up custody of her and let her family pay the bills and take care of her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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