Swingers

[Chloe]

I watched a Dr. Phil show recently and it was about alternative life styles. Now tell me if I'm missing something here but when did it become ok, morally ethically and so on, to allow more than one party into the bed of a married couple. Tell me how one can justify this, especially when there are kids involved.

Its like saying hey kids mommy and daddy want to have sex with other people but don't worry we still love each other.

Does marriage mean "no committment anymore" did webster's dictionary change the definition of what that word means? And why on earth has society said to hell with standards we just wanna have fun?

[I Miss Trudeau]

I watched a Dr. Phil show recently and it was about alternative life styles. Now tell me if I'm missing something here but when did it become ok, morally ethically and so on, to allow more than one party into the bed of a married couple. Tell me how one can justify this, especially when there are kids involved.

Partner 1 freely consents to the event.

Partner 2 freely consents to the event.

Third and fourth (and ...) parties all freely consent to the event.

And we have justification!

Also, I'm not sure why the kids are any more relevant to the swinging sex lives of their parents than they are to a more traditional sex life.

Its like saying hey kids mommy and daddy want to have sex with other people but don't worry we still love each other.

Indeed.

Does marriage mean "no committment anymore" did webster's dictionary change the definition of what that word means?

I think you wrongly assume that such behaviour necessarily destroys commitment. I see no reason to believe this.

And why on earth has society said to hell with standards we just wanna have fun?

Likely because society just wants to have fun. I think a lot of people are getting sick of living in a medieval theocracy.

[RB]

Swinging is recreational sex and recreational sex is widely practice. The females are looking for their orgasms.

I mean you are objecting to swinging because it is immoral since there is no intention of procreation, and the intimacy that was suppose to be secretive is exposed by inviting others.

But if there is no harm done in swinging and the consenting partners are agreeing then there is no social redeeming cherish values to be had.

Some objections would have been if pregnancy does occur, then more single families, contraction of diseases are of concern but these issues are more relevant to education and responsibility.

I have a sense that people who claim to be committed in relationships are unhappy and disillusioned after a couple of years with the same person.

I mean some young men reveal to me that they hook with professionals who are just horny and want to get with sex.

Similarly, the milkman, postman, garbagman, salesman, elasticman, Dick and Charlie all have their stories to tell. And the hook-ups are with a class of income and intelligence to know better but it still happens.

If I were to pinpoint one word for failure to respect commitment of say marriage it would be "PRIDE". Men are afraid of frank discussions of their wants and needs with women, and women always want to talk, want to be caress and hold to the demise of me.

I am thinking that an intelligent, professional man however foolishly goes for a lower status women (even the cleaning woman) than himself probably have a better chance of happiness and less movement to swinging.

Personally, I disapprove the careless sleeping around culture. But, also I recognise that I cannot take my own morals and high standard and use it to gauge others.

But folks usually come face to face with their choice in livestyle and they choose - there is no law to banish casual sex.

[willy]

Jealousy is real?

Is it possible that this alone may be a good reason not to swing? Consenting does not demonstrate the emotional reality of the participants. That is only the behavior. I would be interested to know how the participants feel the next day, and how they feel about themselves.

I have no data on this and I am too lazy to look it up, but I would put money that the average swing couple has a statistically significantly higher chance of divorce.

[Chloe]

I agree with you Willy on that

otherwise to RB and I Miss Trudeau, my jaw drops at your comments, and so I ask the two of you what the point of marriage is?

Why do we have vows, why do we bother with the ceremony, why do we not just stop with it all together and have sex with anything that breaths!

By the way sex within marriage is not just to procreate it also allows people within a marriage to have pleasure without having to worry about contracting something since they are hehmmm suppose to be committed to each other and no outside party that has unsafe sex.

[I Miss Trudeau]

otherwise to RB and I Miss Trudeau, my jaw drops at your comments, and so I ask the two of you what the point of marriage is?

There is no single "point."

Why do we have vows, why do we bother with the ceremony, why do we not just stop with it all together and have sex with anything that breaths!

Doesn't sound at all bad, provided we narrow down "anything that breathes" to "anything that freely consents."

By the way sex within marriage is not just to procreate it also allows people within a marriage to have pleasure without having to worry about contracting something since they are hehmmm suppose to be committed to each other and no outside party that has unsafe sex.

I doubt that your moral outrage stems from safety concerns. Even still, one can be careful and bring the risk to virtually zero anyway.

[PocketRocket]

Some people are born with a narrow viewpoint that allows them to see only the values they were brought up with as being valid.

Others spend lots of time and money learning to be so narrow minded.

Nonetheless, there are over 6 billion people living on this planet right now, each and every person with his/her own perception of right and wrong.

To me, if it does no one any harm, and causes enjoyment for the participants, then nothing is being done wrong, at least nothing worth spending time and energy condemning.

Group sex is not my cup of tea, but if it works for you, knock yourself out.

I do not have to participate, I do not have to watch. Neither do you.

I have no business whatsoever dictating what you or anyone else does in your bedroom. You have no business dictating what is done in mine.

If more people minded their own business on petty issues which do not hurt anyone, we'd have a much friendlier world.

[Chloe]

I was not born with a narrow viewpoint nor do I spend money or time learning to be narrow minded. I do not judge people on the basis of what they do in their bedroom, so Back-Off.

I was simply stating MY OPINION on the BEHAVIOR in which people decide to conduct themselves and the level of reasoning they use in making such decisions. Granted that society does not see marriage as having any real point to it... instead I was merely trying to understand what its purpose and function is in today's world that seeks to act now and think later.

I doubt that your moral outrage stems from safety concerns. Even still, one can be careful and bring the risk to virtually zero anyway.

Where else would my outrage stem from. You all claim that safe sex works, yet you still have millions who refuse it. You have STDs on the rise and doctors wanting to develop the vaccine because after all, it is on the rise.

Hence the society we have.....act now and think later.

And your right in the sense that we all see right and wrong as relative. This is why the most sinister of acts can be seen as right because of a convient word called PERCEPTION

All I have to say is get real. I will no longer waste my time on issues that allow people like yourselves to debunk an opinion because you see it as coming from a moral standpoint.

If I'm moral then what does that make you?

[I Miss Trudeau]

Where else would my outrage stem from. You all claim that safe sex works, yet you still have millions who refuse  it.

Then its clear that the problem is not swinging, but refusing to engage in safe sex. I would guess that the vast majority of people with STD's contract it during good old fashioned 1 on 1 sex.

Hence the society we have.....act now and think later.

Thats kind of a blanket statement.

And your right in the sense that we all see right and wrong as relative. This is why the most sinister of acts can be seen as right because of a convient word  called PERCEPTION

Actually, I don't see right and wrong as relative at all. I just think you're wrong.

All I have to say is get real. I will no longer waste my time on issues that allow people like yourselves to debunk an opinion because you see it as coming from a moral standpoint.

My problem is quite the opposite. I don't see your opinion coming from a moral standpoint.

If I'm moral then what does that make you?

The antecedent of your conditional statement is not true, so the consequent you seek to imply does not follow.

[RB]

otherwise to RB and I Miss Trudeau, my jaw drops at your comments, and so I ask the two of you what the point of marriage is?

I think we usually get screwed more than twice with what constitute marriage.

In Canada we sanctioned marriage to marry one person at a time. I mean some people take this marriage literally to mean forever and have to wait until a partner dies off to hook up with another person

But for many cultures marriage is a socially approved phenomenon that carries weights of rights and obligations and sexual going ons and can happen between greater than 2 people.

Speaking now for the female now.

I think there is this notion of danger that is synonymous with pleasure for women when we speak of sex.

People tend to take a side in their arguments, some view women as scandalous when it is dangerous while others say women have their priorities.

Whenever, I read that women are enjoying themselves and are liberal in their sexual freedoms I am hopeful. If it seem like an attempt to change social norm and behaviours well its a change from suffrage.

I never seem to get how men have a right to be sexual deviants and its just fine and the same is demeaning for women.

Maybe I can attributed this discrepancies to the fact that there was and is hardly any sexual vocabulary as it relates to women. I mean words that come to mind as it relates to sex is modesty, innocent, lovemaking, pure etc.

Hell its no wonder swinging for orgasms is dangerous all of a sudden for women.

I mean men were already using big words and being vulgar as it related to sex, how about penetration, frigidity, sexual appetites and those "can't publish words", men swear a lot, and usually it takes the graphic form of the female genitalia, or erroneous female body parts.

In the meantime women are expected to be kind on words as it relates to sex.

Now that I reflect on this I think there is more to sexuality than just this swinging

[PocketRocket]

  I was not born with a narrow viewpoint nor do I spend money or time learning to be narrow minded. I do not judge people on the basis of what they do in their bedroom, so Back-Off. 

I don't recall mentioning your name, CHLOE. You seem to have taken my comments to heart all on your own, as though you feel the shoe which I described fits. Interesting. I wonder what Dr Phil would say???

  I was simply stating MY OPINION on the BEHAVIOR in which people decide to conduct themselves and the level of reasoning they use in making such decisions. Granted that society does not see marriage as having any real point to it... instead I was merely trying to understand what its purpose and function is in today's world that seeks to act now and think later.

"Seeks to act know and think later". Is it just me, or is this an oxymoronic statement?? By "seeking", you are implying premeditation, or forethought. A plan.

As for your opinion, it's as valid as anyone else's, and I would never attempt to deny you the right to voice it.

I doubt that your moral outrage stems from safety concerns. Even still, one can be careful and bring the risk to virtually zero anyway.

Where else would my outrage stem from. You all claim that safe sex works, yet you still have millions who refuse it. You have STDs on the rise and doctors wanting to develop the vaccine because after all, it is on the rise.

STD's are on the rise for the same reason that some people are too stupid to take an umbrella when they go out in a rainstorm.

Hence the society we have.....act now and think later.

Hence, also, the number of people who have maxxed out all their credit cards

And your right in the sense that we all see right and wrong as relative. This is why the most sinister of acts can be seen as right because of a convient word  called PERCEPTION

I guess that depends in part on which side of the sinister act you're standing on. I'm sure, for example, that Saddam never saw himself as a villain. The bad guy never does. But in my particular post, you will notice that I added the rider about "hurting no one".

All I have to say is get real. I will no longer waste my time on issues that allow people like yourselves to debunk an opinion because you see it as coming from a moral standpoint.

No no no no no. Please continue to post as you see fit. The whole point is to discuss things from different standpoints.

If we all simply agree on everything, it kind of wipes out the whole point of having these forums.

I for one have learned a lot in various political forums. Some of what I have learned I do not like, but all the same, I have come away more knowledgeable for having participated.

If I'm moral then what does that make you? 

Tolerant. Like I said, if it causes no one any harm, then I have no business passing judgement.

As a side note, I personally rate Doctor Phil's show as a cross between pop-psychology and Jerry Springer. Phil has brains, but he still maintains a low-key circus atmosphere.

But please don't get upset by this CHLOE, this is just my opinion. I know many people who enjoy his show. I simply do not appreciate what he has to offer.

I had no problem with the show until I heard about the case a couple years ago where the good doctor had as his guests a couple members of a Fat-People support group. Apparently, they were told that Phil wanted them on the show to bring their plight into the public eye. The group's mandate is to help hopelessly obese people come to terms with their condition, and to help them regain some self-esteem. Once they were actually on the air, the women were absolutely stunned when Phil started laying into them about how they should all be working to get thin and healthy, about how they were simply using the group as a tool to justify their obesity and take the lazy way out. The women, obviously having no experience with on-camera confrontation, were totally flabbergasted, and for most part stunned into silence. And they were obviously hurt by what they saw as a betrayal.

Pop psychology is one thing, but preying on people this way in the name of ratings (and make no mistake, the purpose of ANY tv show is to get ratings) is a totally different beast.

Last I heard about it, the group had launched a lawsuit against Phil and his show.

[The Terrible Sweal]

... men have a right to be sexual deviants and its just fine and the same is demeaning for women.

What "deviance" are men "permitted" that women are not?

[Black Dog]

I watched a Dr. Phil show recently and it was about alternative life styles. Now tell me if I'm missing something here but when did it become ok, morally ethically and so on, to allow more than one party into the bed of a married couple. Tell me how one can justify this, especially when there are kids involved.

Yeah! Why can't they just cheat on each other in secret like the rest of us?

I would certainly hope the kids aren't involved, as that would be both gross and illegal.

Is it possible that this alone may be a good reason not to swing? Consenting does not demonstrate the emotional reality of the participants. That is only the behavior. I would be interested to know how the participants feel the next day, and how they feel about themselves.

Some people can handle it, others are probably not cut out for it. For some its "just sex", while others cannot seperate their emotions from the physical act.

I have no data on this and I am too lazy to look it up, but I would put money that the average swing couple has a statistically significantly higher chance of divorce.

I disagree. Infidelity (that is, having sex with someone outsid ethe marriag ewithout the partners knowledge or consent) is one of the leading causes of divorce. Even then, it's not necessarily about the act as it is about the sense of betrayal. Eliminate the secrecy, get everything out in the open and, for some, you lessen that blow.

Why do we have vows, why do we bother with the ceremony, why do we not just stop with it all together and have sex with anything that breaths!

Marriag emeans different things to different people. Could it be that marriage for some folks simply represents a emotional committment seperate from the sex act?

By the way sex within marriage is not just to procreate it also allows people within a marriage to have pleasure without having to worry about contracting something since they are hehmmm suppose to be committed to each other and no outside party that has unsafe sex.

Well, you can swing or be in an open relationship and still have safe sex.

Where else would my outrage stem from. You all claim that safe sex works, yet you still have millions who refuse it. You have STDs on the rise and doctors wanting to develop the vaccine because after all, it is on the rise.

Right: because of entities like the Catholic Church that deem contraception a mortal sin, or "faith-based" sex education programs that spread misinformation on sex.

Comprehensive sex ed and ready access to contraceptives is the surest way to reduce the spread of STD's, AIDS and unwanted pregnancies. You can take that to the bank.

[Digby]

Could it be possible that Sodom and Gomorah was worse then Canada ? In morals i mean

[kimmy]

Could it be possible that Sodom and Gomorah was worse then Canada ? In morals i mean

If you sincerely think Canada is that bad, then put on your asbestos underwear and start praying.

My thoughts on the discussion at hand: I wouldn't get involved in anything like that, but I don't feel any need to condemn those that do.

From a simple perspective of health, bringing people prone to high-risk behavior into your bed is a dumb idea. Somebody who's into "swinging" is just not somebody you should sleep with, not matter what precautions you take. As mom always warned you... "you don't know where that thing's been."

I also think introducing others into the most intimate parts of your relationship has the potential for unexpected consequences to your relationship. Joey Lauren Adams' character in "Chasing Amy" philosophises on the emotional dangers of a threesome... and while a Kevin Smith movie may not be the most insightful source of relationship advice, I agree with what she said.

-kimmy

[Digby]

Do you think the people of Sodom and Gomorah thought there was anything wrong with their citys?

The majority probly agreed with what ever was happening in town.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Sodom and Gomorrah were actually advanced urban centres of learning and sophistication. This naturally drew the ire of the backward, puritanical, back-desert Yahweh-crowd, with their penchant for violence, propaganda and revisionism.

[PocketRocket]

I guess for an answer to that question, we'll just have to wait until the next time the Doctor Phil Show features guests from Sodom and Gomorrah

Boy oh boy, I bet that show will get big ratings

[Black Dog]

Could it be possible that Sodom and Gomorah was worse then Canada ? In morals i mean

Having never been there, it's hard to say. How about Vegas or Spring Break in Cancun?

These six things doth the LORD hate:

yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue,

and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,

feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies,

and he that soweth discord among  brethren.

-Proverbs 6: 16 - 19

[Digby]

I'll Bet in Sodom and gomorah Most woman knew who fathered their children .

You ever notice how many day time shows like to show woman trying to figgure out who their kids fathers are . Most don't seem to be able to figure it out , and have to come back to the show many times in hopes of finding the real fathers .(maybe its all acting i don't know)

I think its discusting stuff , but i guess its normal Godlessness .

Sounds just like Ezekiel 22

[The Terrible Sweal]

I'll Bet in Sodom and gomorah Most woman knew who fathered their children .

You ever notice how many day time shows like to show woman trying to figgure out who their kids fathers are . Most don't seem to be able to figure it out , and have to come back to the show many times in hopes of finding the real fathers .(maybe its all acting i don't know)

I think its discusting stuff , but i guess its normal Godlessness .

Sounds just like Ezekiel 22

I find the Maury Povich show to be particularly distressing for these performances. He showcases a particularly socially destructive format.

[RB]

QUOTE (RB @ Feb 21 2005, 12:02 AM)

... men have a right to be sexual deviants and its just fine and the same is demeaning for women.

What "deviance" are men "permitted" that women are not?

Sorry, I didn’t ignore your question I just didn’t have the time recently but now I do

In the LANGUAGE of SEX I would like to pose a few questionnaires for Males

1) What do you think caused you to be a macho man?

2) Who decides you are a man?

3) Is it possible that being a man is a phase you can grow out of?

4) Is it possible that being a man stems from a neurotic fear of others such as women

5) What do women do in bed

6) Why do women place so much emphasis on SEX

7) Men, are your parents aware that you don’t wear make-up, and red fingernails?

8) Men, do your friends know that your hair don’t have to be stylish

9) Is it impossible for men to indulged in sexy jump suites, tight sleeveless jerseys, tight slacks, dress with gaping armholes, mini skirts

10) Do other men stare at the males when you wear your string sandals, high heels, spike heels, jewelry, bling-bling? … do the women stare?

11) Tell me, are men proud when they have to change their names

12) When man marries can they have the cake and eat it. I mean can you announce you are married by hyphenating your names in tongue tied strings?

13) As a man using the titled Dr. makes you an overachiever

14) Why do men always want to talk about “sissy” stuff like feelings

15) Why is it that real women are always interested in and always wanting more sex

16) Why are real women TOOLS used for performance like: thrust, rams, bangs while men become delirious with ecstasy

17) Why is it that whatever women do it affects every man much more than vice-versa

18) Why do women seek to maintain their old advantages and view small deference such as equality as threats

19) How come men are so irrational

20) Why are women so eager to be in control to dominate and devourer men

[The Terrible Sweal]

In all that you didn't bother to answer my question. Care to extend that courtesy for a change? Here ...

What "deviance" are men "permitted" that women are not?

[The Terrible Sweal]

Here, I'll even show you how ...

1) What do you think caused you to be a macho man?

In my view, I am not macho

2) Who decides you are a man?

Word meanings evolve from the use they are given in social discourse. I.e. Society decides what a 'man' is.

3) Is it possible that being a man is a phase you can grow out of?

Very likely. Unless something changes rather drastically I am likely to become a corpse after my stint as a man.

4) Is it possible that being a man stems from a neurotic fear of others such as women

'Possible'? Who knows. Probable? No. Probably being a man stems from hormonal infusions in the womb followed by passage of about 18-20 years time.

5) What do women do in bed

I can only speak from my direct knowledge. Women I know sleep, toss and turn, and have sex in bed, among other things.

6) Why do women place so much emphasis on SEX

Same answer as for men. I think it's a combination of nature and nurture.

7) Men, are your parents aware that you don’t wear make-up, and red fingernails?

How do you know I don't?

8) Men, do your friends know that your hair don’t have to be stylish

I have not canvassed their views in this respect.

9) Is it impossible for men to indulged in sexy jump suites, tight sleeveless jerseys, tight slacks, dress with gaping armholes, mini skirts

No it's not impossible.

10) Do other men stare at the males when you wear your string sandals, high heels, spike heels, jewelry, bling-bling? … do the women stare?

I don't know what this question means.

11) Tell me, are men proud when they have to change their names

Probably pride would vary on a case by case basis, depending on the reasons for the change.

12) When man marries can they have the cake and eat it. I mean can you announce you are married by hyphenating your names in tongue tied strings?

Again, I don't comprehend your question.

13) As a man using the titled Dr. makes you an overachiever

That's not a question. Using the title Dr. has the same meaning for everyone though, doesn't it?

14) Why do men always want to talk about “sissy” stuff like feelings

I'm not aware that they do.

15) Why is it that real women are always interested in and always wanting more sex

'Cause they enjoy it maybe.

16) Why are real women TOOLS used for performance like: thrust, rams, bangs while men become delirious with ecstasy

Yet again, I cannot make sense of your convoluted syntax here.

17) Why is it that whatever women do it affects every man much more than vice-versa

I don't think that's correct.

18) Why do women seek to maintain their old advantages and view small deference such as equality as threats

I don't see that happening.

19) How come men are so irrational

Dunno.

20) Why are women so eager to be in control to dominate and devourer men

Good question.

Now, I look forward to you answering my question. Remember it's: What "deviance" are men "permitted" that women are not?

[RB]

well if you participate in the questions you can come up with answers all by yourself, plus you probably have information that you can share that might be new to even me so I am waiting ....

Plus if was tricky trying to come up with those questions in reverse roles