Ford's welfare rollbacks

[turningrite]

As predictably as the weather gets cold in winter (well, in most of Canada at least), the Ford government announced yesterday that it's rolling back welfare reform in Ontario. In particular, it's chopping the "basic income" experiment even though I believe that prior to the election the Conservatives said they'd continue it. And measures announced yesterday will eliminate many other reforms as well as re-emphasize fraud reduction. Some of the changes are probably warranted as there's a concern that welfare and other unearned subsidies may be contributing to the entrenchment of an urban underclass. Also, it's difficult to justify a basic or guaranteed income to compensate for jobs that will theoretically be lost to automation when Canada's bringing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year to meet presumed labor market 'shortages', and about half of the newcomers end up living in Ontario. These policies, which are premised on conflicting logic, can't be rationally justified at the same time.

So, what is the role of welfare at this point? Is it time we end it for employable people and simply set up a system of short-term repayable loans rather than encourage dependency? Maybe rolling back recent reforms isn't enough. Maybe we should begin to look at the whole system through a broader and more realistic lens.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by turningrite

[capricorn]

43 minutes ago, turningrite said:

As predictably as the weather gets cold in winter (well, in most of Canada at least), the Ford government announced yesterday that it's rolling back welfare reform in Ontario. In particular, it's chopping the "basic income" experiment even though I believe that prior to the election the Conservatives said they'd continue it.

Yup, that's a broken campaign promise.

The only people who will disagree with welfare reform are those working in the poverty industry (the higher number of welfare recipients the more business they get) and welfare recipients who will complain about having to work for a living.There is still a 1.5% increase to benefits coming.

[Mr. C]

I love the term "urban underclass" it has an almost free love and bohemian feel to it. Get a real job you rastafarian's! 

29 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Some of the changes are probably warranted as there's a concern that welfare and other unearned subsidies may be contributing to the entrenchment of an urban underclass. 

I too agree that we should set up a system of short-term repayable loans, that'll force those free loving fentanyl users to be accountable to the money i give them. Hell! Just like me, they wouldn't spend a loan on drugs, only a drug addict would do that! 

58 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Is it time we end it for employable people and simply set up a system of short-term repayable loans rather than encourage dependency? 

Now undoubtedly some of those welfare users wont have the money to pay back their loans, so either A. let's throw them all in jail. But not just any jail, we can't just have a bunch of heroin addicts clogging up our judicial system. Lets create a special jail in nunavut, that way when they shiver all night, we can chalk it up to them being cold and not withdrawal. It can be like our own little Siberia.

Option B.  we could set up some kind of co-op program similar to japan, where they turn in something easily collectable and get money back in return. In Tokyo the homeless collect the garbage  off the street. But Toronto's not filled with trash, it's filled with opioid users and immigrants, and you know what opioid users on immigrants on welfare don't need.. teeth. So i vote we set up a teeth exchange program with the dentist college. for each full set of teeth, you get a grand to pay back those loans! 

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

Maybe we should begin to look at the whole system through a broader and more realistic lens.

But you know what the answer isn't! The answer isn't treating mental health like an actual issue that our society faces. The answer isn't giving doctors the power to prescribe clean government tested and regulated drugs in conjunction with some kind of counselling program. And the answer definitely isn't  talking about mental health in an open manner. Rather lets hide it away like the "special child" a mother gave birth to in the 1600's. I live in a society so i can have a better life, not so others can! 

[turningrite]

10 hours ago, Mr. C said:

I too agree that we should set up a system of short-term repayable loans, that'll force those free loving fentanyl users to be accountable to the money i give them. Hell! Just like me, they wouldn't spend a loan on drugs, only a drug addict would do that! 

Option B.  we could set up some kind of co-op program similar to japan, where they turn in something easily collectable and get money back in return. In Tokyo the homeless collect the garbage  off the street.

Your commentary seems somewhat harsh but does appear to acknowledge that encouraging long-term subsidy dependency does nobody any good. In some smaller and more isolated communities there might be very few employment options available so innovative solutions might have to be considered. But in the bigger cities I don't see this as an issue. In my area of the city it seems that almost every fast food place has a help wanted sign in the window. So why are thousands reportedly sitting on welfare? It makes no sense. I think the whole subsidy system needs a rethink.

Edited August 2, 2018 by turningrite

[Guest]

I tend to agree with the statement, "give them a hand up not a handout" but 4,000 people just got screwed because they have made decisions based on the assurances this test program would continue to the end. Also, with 30% of existing jobs set to be replaced by automation in the next 12-15 years, it would have been nice if DoFo kept his promise so we could get the data on a soon to be necessary program.

We tax earnings to provide necessary services so if we are replacing jobs with AI and bots, maybe it's time to tax the machines to provide income and services. 

[eyeball]

56 minutes ago, Slick said:

We tax earnings to provide necessary services so if we are replacing jobs with AI and bots, maybe it's time to tax the machines to provide income and services.

Instead people want to double down on the moral imperative to carry one's own weight.

They'd just as soon render the deadbeats down into bearing lube for the machines.

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, Slick said:

We tax earnings to provide necessary services so if we are replacing jobs with AI and bots, maybe it's time to tax the machines to provide income and services. 

And yet at the same time we are increasing immigration rates to unprecedented numbers because there is a "labour shortage". Ahh, the wonderful world of alternative facts. 

[Bonam]

50 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Instead people want to double down on the moral imperative to carry one's own weight.

Damn straight. A world in which half the population does nothing and lives off handouts from the few who still work is a dystopian nightmare that has been played out enough times in science fiction, we don't need to try it out in reality. 

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Bonam said:

Damn straight. A world in which half the population does nothing and lives off handouts from the few who still work is a dystopian nightmare that has been played out enough times in science fiction, we don't need to try it out in reality. 

Except that's precisely the reality we're barrelling towards. What do you propose society do exactly, sharpen it's pencil and roll up its sleeves?

 

[turningrite]

7 hours ago, Bonam said:

And yet at the same time we are increasing immigration rates to unprecedented numbers because there is a "labour shortage". Ahh, the wonderful world of alternative facts. 

Yes, this is a contradiction that policy makers seem to avoid discussing. We're being fed two conflicting narratives that practically cancel each other out where we're told by progressive politicians both that we must change our income redistribution system to account for job losses and restructuring that will result from automation and at the same time that we must import vast numbers of foreign workers (i.e. immigrants) to address current and looming labor shortages. Might it be that the politicians and policy makers simply don't have a clue as to what will happen and are hedging their bets, in which case both programs are simply experiments in social engineering? In the short term,, and perhaps in the longer term as well, depending on how the automation doomsayer's theory works out, Increasing dependency programs encourages more dependency by discouraging people from participating in the work force while large scale immigration disconnected from actual and anticipated labor market conditions also guarantees greater dependency. So, if encouraging dependency is the primary objective of public policy, implementing both of these policies at the same time is a wonderful recipe for encouraging ever greater dependency. It's either the best of all possible outcomes for those who favor dependency or a nightmare for the taxpaying workers who have to pay for these policies in the form of lower wages and higher taxes.  

Edited August 3, 2018 by turningrite

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, Bonam said:

And yet at the same time we are increasing immigration rates to unprecedented numbers because there is a "labour shortage". Ahh, the wonderful world of alternative facts. 

There is a labour shortage.  I work in corporate IT and there are basically zero white people on the team.  You are not going to be able to get the welfare recipient into one of these jobs.

Also good luck getting any centrist party to turn it's back on business to stop bringing in low wage workers.

[turningrite]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

There is a labour shortage.  I work in corporate IT and there are basically zero white people on the team.  You are not going to be able to get the welfare recipient into one of these jobs.

Also good luck getting any centrist party to turn it's back on business to stop bringing in low wage workers.

You're in Toronto? A friend of mine who works as an IT contractor in Toronto has been out of work for several months and in fact over the past five or six years has only worked half the time. He's university educated and has credentials and certifications galore. When he applies for even a single opportunity, he says he's often in competition with hundreds and even thousands of applicants from both inside Canada and internationally. An agency has told him that some companies don't even hire Canadians most of the time but simply interview them in order to tell the government they can't find suitable candidates here and then bring in workers from overseas. Hourly rates paid in his field, he says, have dropped by anywhere from 15 to 25 percent over the past decade. Maybe you should have a talk with some among the horde of STEM graduates who are leaving Canada following graduation every year due to the lack of opportunities for them here. It seems like a big game to me, where Canadian workers and the Canadian public are being played while the government colludes in undermining the interests of its own citizens.

It appears that there are lots of low-wage service industry jobs in Canada, though, although many who aren't working appear to have little interest in taking these jobs.

Edited August 3, 2018 by turningrite

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, turningrite said:

You're in Toronto? A friend of mine who works as an IT contractor in Toronto has been out of work for several months and in fact over the past five or six years has only worked half the time. He's university educated and has credentials and certifications galore. When he applies for even a single opportunity, he says he's often in competition with hundreds and even thousands of applicants from both inside Canada and internationally. An agency has told him that some companies don't even hire Canadians most of the time but simply interview them in order to tell the government they can't find suitable candidates here and then bring in workers from overseas. Hourly rates paid in his field, he says, have dropped by anywhere from 15 to 25 percent over the past decade. It seems like a big game to me, where Canadian workers and the Canadian public are being played while the government colludes in undermining the interests of its own citizens.

I couldn't comment on this case without knowing details except for the fact that it's peculiar.  Wages are not going down anywhere that I know of.

[turningrite]

Based about what I've heard about the situation, I don't think you're living in the real world. I'm now retired myself, mainly due to a serious degenerative illness, and luckily I have a modest although sufficient pension, but I've had many friends and acquaintances in who in their 50s were displaced from professional jobs during the last recession and never fully recovered. One, a university-educated manager at a major firm, was downsized and after three years of looking, during which he spent almost all his savings to survive, eventually found a minimum wage service industry job. He could barely hold onto housing in the overpriced Toronto rental market and even though ostensibly in good physical shape died a couple years ago of a massive heart attack. We, his friends, believed it was the stress of the circumstances he'd faced that killed him. My friend who works in IT says the government has cancelled all programs that once helped older workers remain in the workforce. He believes that one of the main reasons he can't find employment is his age - late 50s - and I suspect he's correct. The government serves the interests of corporations, and worries about integrating immigrants. Older and even highly qualified Canadian workers? Not so much. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by turningrite

[Michael Hardner]

I assume you are addressing me.  I will say that I have been working in IT since the early 80s so I don't have to go to friends or acquaintances for my stories.

IT got killed by off shoring in the late 1990s and the people you were describing were unable to adapt from the sounds of it.  I had a bad story also.

Unfortunately for us, we we're the by product of corporate power moving to improve cost efficiency in. That's not a bad thing but there is always the prospect of the race to the bottom.

Opposition to the status quo usually is led by the NDP, and it looks like they would only have to come out against immigrants to grab some voters from here.

[taxme]

15 hours ago, Slick said:

I tend to agree with the statement, "give them a hand up not a handout" but 4,000 people just got screwed because they have made decisions based on the assurances this test program would continue to the end. Also, with 30% of existing jobs set to be replaced by automation in the next 12-15 years, it would have been nice if DoFo kept his promise so we could get the data on a soon to be necessary program.

We tax earnings to provide necessary services so if we are replacing jobs with AI and bots, maybe it's time to tax the machines to provide income and services. 

How the hell is bringing in legally or allowing tens of thousands of criminal illegals going to help the situation? The hundreds and hundreds of millions of our Canadian tax dollars that will be blown on these new wonderful illegal criminals could have been better spent on Canadians who need it most and not on criminal illegal foreigners who should not be here at all in the first place and who are making a mockery and laughing at our present day open door border immigration policy of just walk right on in every day. The time for Canada to continue on with worrying or trying to help the rest of the world must come to an end. No more Mr. and Mrs. Canadian nice sucker guy/gal anymore. It is time for some dam tough love for a change and not allowing this politically correct liberal nonsense and foolishness to continue. It is the Canadian who needs the help and not foreigners for gawds sake.  Wake the hell up Canada. 

[taxme]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I couldn't comment on this case without knowing details except for the fact that it's peculiar.  Wages are not going down anywhere that I know of.

They are not going up all that much either. 

[Bonam]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

There is a labour shortage.  I work in corporate IT and there are basically zero white people on the team.  You are not going to be able to get the welfare recipient into one of these jobs.

Also good luck getting any centrist party to turn it's back on business to stop bringing in low wage workers.

Not sure how the presence or lack of white people on your team says anything about a labour shortage. First, that's anecdotal, as you well know. Second, most of the people on your team are Canadians, I'm sure. Third, Corporate IT is ripe for more automation in the coming years, anyway. 
 

As for centrist parties, by which I assume you mean Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP. You're right. Conventional political parties have largely failed Western countries over the last decade or so. Individual liberties have been eroded, populations have become more bitterly divided over social issues, corruption has proliferated, etc. The sooner the political status quo that permits all this to continue is shattered, the better. 

[taxme]

On 8/1/2018 at 7:47 AM, turningrite said:

As predictably as the weather gets cold in winter (well, in most of Canada at least), the Ford government announced yesterday that it's rolling back welfare reform in Ontario. In particular, it's chopping the "basic income" experiment even though I believe that prior to the election the Conservatives said they'd continue it. And measures announced yesterday will eliminate many other reforms as well as re-emphasize fraud reduction. Some of the changes are probably warranted as there's a concern that welfare and other unearned subsidies may be contributing to the entrenchment of an urban underclass. Also, it's difficult to justify a basic or guaranteed income to compensate for jobs that will theoretically be lost to automation when Canada's bringing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year to meet presumed labor market 'shortages', and about half of the newcomers end up living in Ontario. These policies, which are premised on conflicting logic, can't be rationally justified at the same time.

So, what is the role of welfare at this point? Is it time we end it for employable people and simply set up a system of short-term repayable loans rather than encourage dependency? Maybe rolling back recent reforms isn't enough. Maybe we should begin to look at the whole system through a broader and more realistic lens.

 

 

Ford is going to do what needs to be done which is long overdue. Get rid of the freeloaders. A young guy on the street panhandling with a sign that says I am hungry well who's fault is that? Not mine, his. There are plenty of jobs out there but they appear to not want to work for the money. They prefer to go hungry and freeze outside rather than go get a job. There right of course  to do as they please but don't be standing around some corner and hoping for a handout from me because I for one will not be giving any handouts. I like so many others out there all forced ourselves to go work for a living and to do so for several decades to try and get somewhere in life. I have no pity for these panhandlers. They are where they are and I must assume that the streets is where they want to be. Good luck to them. 

Automation will no doubt be replacing many jobs in the future in Canada so why do our politicians keep allowing in hundreds of thousands of new legal and illegal refugees/immigrants into Canada every year? With Canadians being forced to live on the streets while illegal criminal foreigners get to stay in hotels is what I call a program of government insanity. Have all of our politicians gone bonkers in the head? Most of those bloody fools appear to be trying to destroy and bankrupt Canada not save it with no concern at all about it. All they appear to want to do is appear politically correct and continue to look rather stupid all the time. Maybe what we should be doing is to start by having anyone that wants to become a politician should be forced to take an IQ test first to see if they can think before they speak because most of our politicians appear to speak first and think later. Many really do appear to have a very low IQ if any. My opinion of course. 

[taxme]

18 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Not sure how the presence or lack of white people on your team says anything about a labour shortage. First, that's anecdotal, as you well know. Second, most of the people on your team are Canadians, I'm sure. Third, Corporate IT is ripe for more automation in the coming years, anyway. 
 

As for centrist parties, by which I assume you mean Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP. You're right. Conventional political parties have largely failed Western countries over the last decade or so. Individual liberties have been eroded, populations have become more bitterly divided over social issues, corruption has proliferated, etc. The sooner the political status quo that permits all this to continue is shattered, the better. 

But for this to happen Canadians must start to give a chit. I just cannot see this ever happening. Most Canadians are too much wrapped up over themselves and appear to not give a dam what is happening to Canada and where their tax dollars are being blown and wasted every day. As long as they say that I am okay and it is all about me-me-me than why should they give a chit as to what is going on. It's called screw the other guy/gal. Just saying. 

[taxme]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:07 PM, turningrite said:

Your commentary seems somewhat harsh but does appear to acknowledge that encouraging long-term subsidy dependency does nobody any good. In some smaller and more isolated communities there might be very few employment options available so innovative solutions might have to be considered. But in the bigger cities I don't see this as an issue. In my area of the city it seems that almost every fast food place has a help wanted sign in the window. So why are thousands reportedly sitting on welfare? It makes no sense. I think the whole subsidy system needs a rethink.

We are statring to see the left wing liberal media already attacking Doug Ford every day and no doubt it will be a part of their agenda now is to go after and let's get Ford on something just like the fake and lying left wing liberal media are doing to Trump every day. Attack-attack-attack. But like Trump who is a lot smarter than the liberal left wing media Trump took to Twitter to get his points across to his followers points that the media cannot alter because Trump has already found out that no matter what Trump says or does he knows that the media will try and take it out of context and try to make what he always says or does and try to create false news out of it. 

So Ford as created his own TV news channel called Online News Now where he will be reporting to the people as to what he is doing without this left wing liberal media being able to change the narrative around to suit their lying and fake anti Ford bias news. The game is fast coming to an end with the lying and fake leftist liberal media in Canada getting their own way. The people will now be able to get the real news straight from Ford and not from that useless bunch of crybaby snowflake liberal losers who will never accept the fact that they lost the election battle. It all looks not so great for them now. As they say suck it up buttercup. 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, taxme said:

How the hell is bringing in legally or allowing tens of thousands of criminal illegals going to help the situation? The hundreds and hundreds of millions of our Canadian tax dollars that will be blown on these new wonderful illegal criminals could have been better spent on Canadians who need it most and not on criminal illegal foreigners who should not be here at all in the first place and who are making a mockery and laughing at our present day open door border immigration policy of just walk right on in every day. The time for Canada to continue on with worrying or trying to help the rest of the world must come to an end. No more Mr. and Mrs. Canadian nice sucker guy/gal anymore. It is time for some dam tough love for a change and not allowing this politically correct liberal nonsense and foolishness to continue. It is the Canadian who needs the help and not foreigners for gawds sake.  Wake the hell up Canada. 

Any comment on this actual topic?  

What do we do about the fact that computers and machines are very quickly replacing unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. For example, the entire transportation industry is about to be disrupted by autonomous trucks. For the most part, the men and women who drive can't easily be retrained to fill our skill gaps.

[taxme]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

There is a labour shortage.  I work in corporate IT and there are basically zero white people on the team.  You are not going to be able to get the welfare recipient into one of these jobs.

Also good luck getting any centrist party to turn it's back on business to stop bringing in low wage workers.

Then that would appear to me as though there may be a program of racism hiring only non-whites first. Even our own Canadian federal government had and probably still has in place a program where white people need not apply. If that is not racist then what is? They tell us all that racism is not acceptable in Canada except for when the federal government wishes to do so. Then it is alright to deny white people a job in the federal government. Good luck if one can see or hear any politician who will ever challenge the federal government on that obvious racism. Low wage immigrant workers are a good reason why wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. They have no problem with working for half the salary that ordinary Canadians now work for. They say more immigration is needed and his suppose to be great for Canada but in reality I personally believe that it will destroy Canada. Just my opinion. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

They are not going up all that much either. 

Yes they are going up fine in corporate IT.

[taxme]

12 minutes ago, Slick said:

Any comment on this actual topic?  

What do we do about the fact that computers and machines are very quickly replacing unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. For example, the entire transportation industry is about to be disrupted by autonomous trucks. For the most part, the men and women who drive can't easily be retrained to fill our skill gaps.

What we need to do is stop all immigration altogether and have a moratorium on immigration for at least ten years or until we can get our own unemployment problem straightened out, and get ready for the upcoming loss of hundreds or maybe even thousands of jobs in Canada when many jobs will be replaced by automation. I was watching a program on how American container ports are now being automated where there will be no need for men to drive cranes anymore. It will all be done by so called robot machines that will be doing all the sorting and lifting and piling up of containers. Manpower will just about almost disappear and thousands of jobs will be lost at these ports.

Canada does not need no stinkin' United Nations to be telling Canadians as to how many legal or illegal so called refugees that we MUST take in. Canadians should be able to decide on that for themselves as to how many new immigrants/refugees that we should take in. It is our tax dollars and not the UN tax dollars. The UN is a disaster and has never solved any crises at all. All the UN has done is create more crises around the world. They are nothing more than a bunch of money sucking appointed communist leaches. Trump should shut down the UN and ship it off to some third world country where it belongs and where they may have to do something for a change that will be good for the people although I don't think that the UN knows what to do about anything. 

But ask our politically correct puppet on a string politicians if they care about our immigration crises that is going on in Canada today? They really don't. They see this coming crisis coming but yet they just carry on and want to keep flooding Canada with more new immigrants legal or illegal that we cannot handle and setup Canada for a 1929 crash. Hello everybody. Are you starting to get the picture yet? Just wondering.