Value of a Fetus. Time to overturn Roe v. Wade?

[piercj2]

Maybe he is, and I do get laid relatively often, by gosh? Yeah and I am a christian, but are you just going to go on nagging or are you actually going to defend any of the factual statements I made about weman in general. And perky tits is a phisical trait, not really superficial as clothing ect

[Biblio Bibuli]

Just as a man knows if he has sex, and a women becomes pregnant he will have to pay child support.

As my dear old dad used to tell me: "Life isn't fair. Get used to it."

Hmm ... the least you could do is to marry one of them.

[Black Dog]

Maybe he is, and I do get laid relatively often, by gosh? Yeah and I am a christian, but are you just going to go on nagging or are you actually going to defend any of the factual statements I made about weman in general.

First off: you claim to be a college student. I can't imagine what college would produce someone with such a shoddy grasp of the written word (did you mean Clown College maybe?). Second, you claim to be a Christian, yet seem completely ignorant of Christ's revolutionary (for the time) attitude towards women (which is illustrated nicely by the story of the adultress). Third, you claim your statements are factual. They are not: they are your opinion (but I can see how the distinction would be lost on a solipsist such as yourself).

And finally:

And perky tits is a phisical trait, not really superficial as clothing ect

So there's nothing wrong, then for a woman to like a guy just for his hair, abs or dick?

[piercj2]

Temper, Temper. Hear read, the post again, and I do enjoy clown college, its an ivy league school. What on earth do you mean christ's new attitude towards woman, and the story of adultery. I will go through it for you slowly. And, yes it is ok to like a guy for his hair or his dick, that is better than liking him for his job or his wallet.

1. Weather they are liking a man for money, clothing, being famous or just fitting the right image and then claiming they like a guy for who he is as a person- can anyone actually deny this, did you know that donald trump (old wrinkled) has been married three times, and all three to supermodels, or Anna Nickole smith marring a man on the verge of death and trying to get his money. It is not even reasonable to try and argue this point, because everyone knows that girls will marry a man because of his money

2. killing of thier offspring because they do not want to take the responsibility of caring for someone they brought into the world- By this I mean abortion. A woman kills a developing human being before it is conceived. Sorry, but that it is a fact (and then takes not responsbibility for it)

3. raising hell against guys because thier lack of sympahty or responsibility regarding their careers and emotional support, just bitter because they cannot get married in a society where weman are oppurtunistic and battled for thier own freedom to be independent and support themselves- this is true because of the fact that feminism is so prevelant. I mean where did femenism come from? Bitterness. Right answer. And woman are still bitter to this day when you have woman like Mareen Dowd writing books like, "are men neccesary?" You know in your heart alot of woman are bitter

4.going to college for years and never even whole heartedly pursuing a career-

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/national...&pagewanted=all

that is all the proff you need- or just google the subject

5. or just talking behind eachother's backs about eachother and then trying to be a freind- there is simply no way to defend a fact that women are known for gossiping and talking behind other backs

Here another copy, read it again

all of this talk in this forum, and other forums, especially alot of my posts have brought me to the conclusion that overall women are just irrational. Weather they are liking a man for money, clothing, being famous or just fitting the right image and then claiming they like a guy for who he is as a person, killing of thier offspring because they do not want to take the responsibility of caring for someone they brought into the world, raising hell against guys because thier lack of sympahty or responsibility regarding their careers and emotional support, just bitter because they cannot get married in a society where weman are oppurtunistic and battled for thier own freedom to be independent and support themselves, (they wanted it, dont blame the rest of the male population if you end up single and without children, in an independent society) going to college for years and never even whole heartedly pursuing a career, just acting like they are gods gift to the earth and need to be treated a certain waybecause of they way the look, or just talking behind eachother's backs about eachother and then trying to be a freind. Overall conclusion, women don't even have a firm grasp on thier own aspirations and will nag and argue about anything nomatter how good they have it. Thats why it says all this about them in the bible (I am a christian)

1 Timothy

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1 timothy

11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

1 Timothy

11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

Ecclesiasties

26 I find more bitter than death

the woman who is a snare,

whose heart is a trap

and whose hands are chains.

The man who pleases God will escape her,

but the sinner she will ensnare.

Ecclesiasties

28 while I was still searching

but not finding—

I found one upright man among a thousand,

but not one upright woman among them all.

undefendable

[Drea]

(I am a christian)

Sorry buddy

No excuse for being a chavinist little pig.

Maybe (for your horniness) you oughta get a blowup doll. She won't be hysterical or nuttin' man, she'll just open right up for you.

[piercj2]

I'd rather take a sorority girl for my, "horniness"

[margrace]

Temper, Temper. Hear read, the post again, and I do enjoy clown college, its an ivy league school. What on earth do you mean christ's new attitude towards woman, and the story of adultery. I will go through it for you slowly. And, yes it is ok to like a guy for his hair or his dick, that is better than liking him for his job or his wallet.

1. Weather they are liking a man for money, clothing, being famous or just fitting the right image and then claiming they like a guy for who he is as a person- can anyone actually deny this, did you know that donald trump (old wrinkled) has been married three times, and all three to supermodels, or Anna Nickole smith marring a man on the verge of death and trying to get his money. It is not even reasonable to try and argue this point, because everyone knows that girls will marry a man because of his money

2. killing of thier offspring because they do not want to take the responsibility of caring for someone they brought into the world- By this I mean abortion. A woman kills a developing human being before it is conceived. Sorry, but that it is a fact (and then takes not responsbibility for it)

3. raising hell against guys because thier lack of sympahty or responsibility regarding their careers and emotional support, just bitter because they cannot get married in a society where weman are oppurtunistic and battled for thier own freedom to be independent and support themselves- this is true because of the fact that feminism is so prevelant. I mean where did femenism come from? Bitterness. Right answer. And woman are still bitter to this day when you have woman like Mareen Dowd writing books like, "are men neccesary?" You know in your heart alot of woman are bitter

4.going to college for years and never even whole heartedly pursuing a career-

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/national...&pagewanted=all

that is all the proff you need- or just google the subject

5. or just talking behind eachother's backs about eachother and then trying to be a freind- there is simply no way to defend a fact that women are known for gossiping and talking behind other backs

Here another copy, read it again

all of this talk in this forum, and other forums, especially alot of my posts have brought me to the conclusion that overall women are just irrational. Weather they are liking a man for money, clothing, being famous or just fitting the right image and then claiming they like a guy for who he is as a person, killing of thier offspring because they do not want to take the responsibility of caring for someone they brought into the world, raising hell against guys because thier lack of sympahty or responsibility regarding their careers and emotional support, just bitter because they cannot get married in a society where weman are oppurtunistic and battled for thier own freedom to be independent and support themselves, (they wanted it, dont blame the rest of the male population if you end up single and without children, in an independent society) going to college for years and never even whole heartedly pursuing a career, just acting like they are gods gift to the earth and need to be treated a certain waybecause of they way the look, or just talking behind eachother's backs about eachother and then trying to be a freind. Overall conclusion, women don't even have a firm grasp on thier own aspirations and will nag and argue about anything nomatter how good they have it. Thats why it says all this about them in the bible (I am a christian)

1 Timothy

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1 timothy

11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

1 Timothy

11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

Ecclesiasties

26 I find more bitter than death

the woman who is a snare,

whose heart is a trap

and whose hands are chains.

The man who pleases God will escape her,

but the sinner she will ensnare.

Ecclesiasties

28 while I was still searching

but not finding—

I found one upright man among a thousand,

but not one upright woman among them all.

undefendable

O Boy what a lot of crap.

[Black Dog]

What on earth do you mean christ's new attitude towards woman, and the story of adultery.

Gee, I thought you were a Christian. Here's a hint: "let he who is without sin cast he first stone."

1. Weather they are liking a man for money, clothing, being famous or just fitting the right image and then claiming they like a guy for who he is as a person- can anyone actually deny this, did you know that donald trump (old wrinkled) has been married three times, and all three to supermodels, or Anna Nickole smith marring a man on the verge of death and trying to get his money. It is not even reasonable to try and argue this point, because everyone knows that girls will marry a man because of his money

I'd marry a woman for money. Yer point? Of course, I also can't help notice that all the rich men you mentioned married extremely young, hot (though in the case of Anna Nicole Smith, the term is debateable) women. Now, given that beauty and youth are fleeting things, how rational is it for a man to marry a woman on the basis of superficial physical traits? And at the end of the day, Anna Nicole's sugar daddy is pushing up daisies while she's in line for a billion dollar payday. Rationality advantage: "wemen".

2. killing of thier offspring because they do not want to take the responsibility of caring for someone they brought into the world- By this I mean abortion. A woman kills a developing human being before it is conceived. Sorry, but that it is a fact (and then takes not responsbibility for it)

It's their body, their decision. Besides, what about men who bugger off after knocking a woman up? Deadbeat dads, anyone? Also: abortion occurs after conception and before birth. Don't they teach you that

in college?

3. raising hell against guys because thier lack of sympahty or responsibility regarding their careers and emotional support, just bitter because they cannot get married in a society where weman are oppurtunistic and battled for thier own freedom to be independent and support themselves- this is true because of the fact that feminism is so prevelant. I mean where did femenism come from? Bitterness. Right answer. And woman are still bitter to this day when you have woman like Mareen Dowd writing books like, "are men neccesary?" You know in your heart alot of woman are bitter

Hold up: women are bitter because they can't find husbands and they can't find husbands because of feminism which came about because women were bitter? Is this some kind of bizzare Zen koan, like the one about one hand clapping? Because it sure as hell doesn't make any logical sense.

4.going to college for years and never even whole heartedly pursuing a career-

from the article:

The women said that pursuing a rigorous college education was worth the time and money because it would help position them to work in meaningful part-time jobs when their children are young or to attain good jobs when their children leave home.

Hey if that's their choice, whatever. It must be nice to have the option. Yay feminism!

5. or just talking behind eachother's backs about eachother and then trying to be a freind- there is simply no way to defend a fact that women are known for gossiping and talking behind other backs

I'm a guy. Guys do this all the time. See, your "fact" is what's called a "sterotype": that is, an oversimplification or broad generalization. Next i suppose you'll be telling me how Jews are great with money...

[piercj2]

legitmant crap

[piercj2]

Gee, I thought you were a Christian. Here's a hint: "let he who is without sin cast he first stone."

That’s true everyone sins, but it does not make the information I brought up from the bible any less true

I'd marry a woman for money. Yer point?

That makes you just as superficial as a lot of woman. Congratulations. Name one young man who married a wrinkled old woman for her money. ??? I thought so

Of course, I also can't help notice that all the rich men you mentioned married extremely young, hot (though in the case of Anna Nicole Smith, the term is debateable) women. Now, given that beauty and youth are fleeting things, how rational is it for a man to marry a woman on the basis of superficial physical traits

Think about it a little, by the time their beauty flees them, the man will be nearly dead. It takes time for beauty to flee. If you are sixty years old, and you marry a thirty year old, you will be dead by the time she gets old. (think about it a little) Physical traits, are not really superficial. Are you kidding me, the old man gets the best deal.

It's their body, their decision. Besides, what about men who bugger off after knocking a woman up? Deadbeat dads, anyone? Also: abortion occurs after conception and before birth. Don't they teach you that

in college?

Ok, think about what you are saying. The “Dead beat dads” are forced to pay child support by law. They are still killing a developing human in an abortion, whats your point? If they did not have an abortion they would bring human life into the world. That was my point in saying they should not have the choice and have to deal with their own responsibility? Think about it

Hold up: women are bitter because they can't find husbands and they can't find husbands because of feminism which came about because women were bitter? Is this some kind of bizzare Zen koan, like the one about one hand clapping? Because it sure as hell doesn't make any logical sense.

Ok, if its not logical that feminism came because women were bitter, than why the hell did it come. Of course that is why it came. If you have a better reason I would like to hear it. Marriage rates are down in our nation, divorce is common, why was it not life this fifty years ago?

The women said that pursuing a rigorous college education was worth the time and money because it would help position them to work in meaningful part-time jobs when their children are young or to attain good jobs when their children leave home.

Their expectation are not logical at all. Some of them will not even get married, another half will be divorced. Many of them are going to be forced to work full time anyway. Most marriages now happen at age 27 anyway. They are not just going to be able to pick and choose when they want to work, and what jobs they want to work at, and be able to take time out when they want at a high level career. Like I said, half of them are going to end up being single parents with kids, and working full time. Their view are unrealistic. And even if they got to have kids and work part time, do you know how much some of those education cost? And nothing is sure, even with the husband in our economy

point made

[JerrySeinfeld]

So as long as we kill it before it is entirely out of the womb it's ok? How did we come to this conclusion?

Because there's a distinction between a fetus as a living thing and a real person. It's a necessary one for balancing individual rights.

It's also necessary for women to hide behind that ivory tower bullshit so that women can run around having unprotected sex with no consequences.

[Black Dog]

That’s true everyone sins, but it does not make the information I brought up from the bible any less true

Oh boy. We got a live one here folks.

That makes you just as superficial as a lot of woman. Congratulations. Name one young man who married a wrinkled old woman for her money. ??? I thought so

Ever heard of "cougars"? Besides: why is money a more superficial reason to marry someone than, say, tits?

Think about it a little, by the time their beauty flees them, the man will be nearly dead. It takes time for beauty to flee. If you are sixty years old, and you marry a thirty year old, you will be dead by the time she gets old. (think about it a little)

So, you get dead, she gets rich and still has many years to enjoy her life and your money. Whoo! You're a big winner champ!

Physical traits, are not really superficial. Are you kidding me, the old man gets the best deal.

Physical traits are totally superficial. And the old man gets dead.

Ok, think about what you are saying. The “Dead beat dads” are forced to pay child support by law. They are still killing a developing human in an abortion, whats your point? If they did not have an abortion they would bring human life into the world. That was my point in saying they should not have the choice and have to deal with their own responsibility? Think about it

Deadbeat dads are called deadbeat dads becaus ethey duck their legal obligations. As for the idea that women should be forced to carry unwanted childen to term, I'm gonna go out on alimb and say, on behalf of pro-choice women: fuck you. What gives you the right to dictate?

Ok, if its not logical that feminism came because women were bitter, than why the hell did it come. Of course that is why it came. If you have a better reason I would like to hear it. Marriage rates are down in our nation, divorce is common, why was it not life this fifty years ago?

But, you said women were bitter "because they cannot get married in a society where weman are oppurtunistic and battled for thier own freedom to be independent and support themselves": in other words women are bitter because of feminism. So, if feminism made women bitter, and feminism came about because women were bittter, why were they bitter in the first place? If women are only happy having babies and being housewifes, then feminism shouldn't have happened.

If you want to know where feminism came from, I suggest signing up for a intro women's studies class. Or, I dunno, read a book on the subject. Here's a hint: "suffaragettes".

Their expectation are not logical at all. Some of them will not even get married, another half will be divorced.

So some will not get married. Thank god they have a Ivy League education to get them through, while the one's who divorce will have their education and a chunk of hubby to get by on. Not a bad deal.

Many of them are going to be forced to work full time anyway.

So?

Like I said, half of them are going to end up being single parents with kids, and working full time.

Based on what?

And even if they got to have kids and work part time, do you know how much some of those education cost?

Ever heard of scholarships? Rich parents?

I grow weary of this game.

[Black Dog]

It's also necessary for women to hide behind that ivory tower bullshit so that women can run around having unprotected sex with no consequences.

That's the man's job, right Jerry?

[piercj2]

who ever, what ever, if ever you were black dog. I guess thier is no winning with you, even though every thing that I am saying is perfectly logical, so I guess just go on beleiving what you beleive. Some people cannot see the truth, because the essence of the truth is blind to thier opitmistic blieving nature

[Black Dog]

who ever, what ever, if ever you were black dog. I guess thier is no winning with you, even though every thing that I am saying is perfectly logical, so I guess just go on beleiving what you beleive. Some people cannot see the truth, because the essence of the truth is blind to thier opitmistic blieving nature

I'm no optimist. If anything, your posts make me extremely pessimistic about the state of our education system, the attitudes of young men today and the future of our society as a whole. If you're the future, we're all screwed.

[JerrySeinfeld]

who ever, what ever, if ever you were black dog. I guess thier is no winning with you, even though every thing that I am saying is perfectly logical, so I guess just go on beleiving what you beleive. Some people cannot see the truth, because the essence of the truth is blind to thier opitmistic blieving nature

I'm no optimist. If anything, your posts make me extremely pessimistic about the state of our education system, the attitudes of young men today and the future of our society as a whole. If you're the future, we're all screwed.

How many times do I have to tell you: stick to the issues. You seem fixated on personal insults and attacks, which I suppose speaks for your ability to make a sound, relevant argument.

[geoffrey]

It all comes down to whether you believe things are alive when they are conceived.

If they are, abortion in murder.

If they are not, then its no big deal.

Personally I think they are alive and all abortionists are the serial killers of our time. I also realise that backalley abortions are a big serial killer of our time. Thats why I think we need to keep it legal, make it extremely difficult to obtain though, and have punishment attached. But have it available, because people are dying either way.

It's just like the infanticide, they are lesser people too until your 3. It's a max of what, five years?

Who'll protect those that can't speak for themselves? Obviously not our courts or government.

There is no longer an excuse for women to say, 'oh it wasn't my fault, he didn't use a condom.' The pill, the morning after pill, female condoms, and a horde of other female based contraceptives make it completely both parties responsibility. Two reliable methods and you won't ever need to.

It tends to be spure of the moment irrespsonbility, which in all other cases when it results in death or physical harm at the very least (abortions probably aren't good for ya), is punished by the law.

3 abortions and you get a life sentence. There is no reason for that amount of vast irresponsibility, I don't want people like that in society.

[Renegade]

There is no longer an excuse for women to say, 'oh it wasn't my fault, he didn't use a condom.' The pill, the morning after pill, female condoms, and a horde of other female based contraceptives make it completely both parties responsibility. Two reliable methods and you won't ever need to.

geoffrey, since by your statement above you seem to advocate the responsible use of contraceptive measures, including the morning-after pill. Can you describe what conceptually distinguishes the morning-after pill which makes it permissable and an abortion not?

[geoffrey]

There is no longer an excuse for women to say, 'oh it wasn't my fault, he didn't use a condom.' The pill, the morning after pill, female condoms, and a horde of other female based contraceptives make it completely both parties responsibility. Two reliable methods and you won't ever need to.

geoffrey, since by your statement above you seem to advocate the responsible use of contraceptive measures, including the morning-after pill. Can you describe what conceptually distinguishes the morning-after pill which makes it permissable and an abortion not?

Morning-after pill prevents the egg from attaching to the Uterian (spelling?) wall, so its never really alive per say. Egg division isn't happening yet, no life processes have begun.

If someone got that, I'd be like ok, stupid decision last night, whatever. It's also an acceptable method of dealing with rapes and the such.

I'm a progressive pro-lifer.

[Renegade]

Morning-after pill prevents the egg from attaching to the Uterian (spelling?) wall, so its never really alive per say. Egg division isn't happening yet, no life processes have begun.

So I take it that you don't agree that life begins at conception? Why exactly do you consider egg division a suitable ciriteria to determine that life begins at that point?

[GostHacked]

No we should not revisit Roe vs Wade. That is all I am going to contibute to this derailed thread.

[geoffrey]

Morning-after pill prevents the egg from attaching to the Uterian (spelling?) wall, so its never really alive per say. Egg division isn't happening yet, no life processes have begun.

So I take it that you don't agree that life begins at conception? Why exactly do you consider egg division a suitable ciriteria to determine that life begins at that point?

Growth. Otherwise its just a cell.

[Renegade]

Growth. Otherwise its just a cell.

Yes, but once attached to the uteral wall, it is still just a cell or group of cells. I don't see a conceputal difference in your argument that its ok to abort a single cell zygote but not if it is multiple cells.

[Black Dog]

How many times do I have to tell you: stick to the issues. You seem fixated on personal insults and attacks, which I suppose speaks for your ability to make a sound, relevant argument.

Oh yes sir, right away sir.

Some posters simply invite mockery; if that offends your delicate sensebilities, take it up with the mod. But don't lecture me on etiquette.

[Renegade]

Morning-after pill prevents the egg from attaching to the Uterian (spelling?) wall, so its never really alive per say. Egg division isn't happening yet, no life processes have begun.

So I take it that you don't agree that life begins at conception? Why exactly do you consider egg division a suitable ciriteria to determine that life begins at that point?

Growth. Otherwise its just a cell.

geoffrey, it appears facts don't support your position. see below:

Fertilization of an egg by a sperm occurs soon after its release from the ovary (ovulation) into the fallopian tube to form a single cell embryo (zygote) containing the genetic material of the sperm and egg. The zygote then divides progressively into a multi-cell embryo. When the embryo contains about 12-16 cells, it is called a "morula". After 5-6 days, the embryo contains many cells and forms a cystic cavity termed the blastocoel within its center. At this stage, the embryo is called a "blastocyst" and has undergone the 1st step in differentiation; it separates into two tissue types, the trophectoderm and the inner cell mass. The trophectoderm is what is destined to become the placenta, while the inner cell mass eventually forms the fetus. In the human, the egg is fertilized in the fallopian tube near the ovary. The developing embryo descends through the tube into the uterine (endometrial) cavity about three to four days after ovulation when it is at the morula stage. The embryo sits in the uterine (endometrial) cavity for about two days during which time it develops into a blastocyst. The blastocyst invades (implantation) the uterine lining about the fifth or sixth day after ovulation so that it can develop a blood supply (placenta) that will allow it to continue to grow into a fetus and then a baby.

Background Information

So, it seems that the cell devides and starts growing before it ever implants on the uterine lining. So now you have to think up a new reason why this is not consistent with abortion, or you will have to revise your support of the morning-after pill as a contraceptive.