JamesHackerMP Posted June 30, 2017 Report Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) Betsy, you keep dodging our questions every time we question anything you say. It's OK to have an opposing viewpoint on here, just don't dodge all the time. And I know you're going to respond with an ad hominem attack (accuse me of doing the same thing). Please don't. I just had a big lunch. 1 hour ago, betsy said: I said: If the primordial hydrogen and hellium are synthesized inside the star.....that means the stars already existed. Where did those stars come from? They were not already there. Read a little more about the Big Bang. And you misspelled "Helium". By the way, I thought this thread was supposed to be about the contradictions in the Bible. This subject was covered in your other egregiously-posted thread about "Why trust the bible?" Here's something in the bible I find odd. It gives a list of the descendants of Adam through his surviving children (e.g., not Abel because Cain slew him). But then the flood wipes everyone out except Noah, his wife, and his sons and their families. Why, then are these descendants of Adam and Eve mentioned in the bible? this is something I'm just curious about. It does seem superfluous to mention them if they all cash in their chips on the next page. Edited June 30, 2017 by JamesHackerMP Quote "We're not above nature, Mr Hacker, we're part of it. Men are animals, too!" "I know that, I've just come from the House of Commons!" [Yes, Minister]
DogOnPorch Posted June 30, 2017 Report Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said: By the way, I thought this thread was supposed to be about the contradictions in the Bible. This subject was covered in your other egregiously-posted thread about "Why trust the bible?" That's the point, James. Genesis is one big contradiction. It clearly separates stars from the Sun...among other contradictions. Water is a reality right from Genesis verse 2...etc...let's look at the first few verses... Quote In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place,and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. Okay...four days: The Earth is made first including day and night..and water which means oxygen has already been synthesized..number 8 on the Periodic Table right off the bat. Plants BEFORE the Sun? Okay...God...lol. The Sun and Moon...described as great lights...and stars...on the fourth day. In for a penny...in for a pound. Genesis is WRONG. There's no way to even bend Genesis right with word-play. This invalidates the whole works...at least as far as myself an similar thinkers go. You, I imagine...included. Really...the two threads should be merged. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
TTM Posted June 30, 2017 Report Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Genesis is one big contradiction. It clearly separates stars from the Sun...among other contradictions. Water is a reality right from Genesis verse 2...etc...let's look at the first few verses... Okay...four days: The Earth is made first including day and night..and water which means oxygen has already been synthesized..number 8 on the Periodic Table right off the bat. Plants BEFORE the Sun? Okay...God...lol. The Sun and Moon...described as great lights...and stars...on the fourth day. You forgot the best part: day and night cycles before the creation of the sun or planet... Edited June 30, 2017 by TTM 1 Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 30, 2017 Report Posted June 30, 2017 Reality as science tells it: Our Type G2V Yellow dwarf star is what is known as a Population I metal-rich star....most yellow dwarfs are. It's full of all sorts of "strange" elements that aren't hydrogen or helium. These "strange" elements...like iron, gold, argon, cobalt...etc...were all formed from nucleosynthesis inside stars...either during the fusion process (up to Iron #26)...or during a supernova event...those above #26. Other stars had to be born, live and die to create our Sun. This is straight out of Cosmos. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted June 30, 2017 Report Posted June 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, TTM said: You forgot the best part: day and night cycles before the creation of the sun or planet... Indeed. It's not a science book...although I understand why the agenda is to try and make it seem so...God of the gaps and all that. Betsy's world is shrinking. Another great book by Sagan...The Demon Haunted World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 4 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said: They were not already there. Read a little more about the Big Bang. And you misspelled "Helium". "If the primordial hydrogen and hellium are synthesized inside the star..." How can it be inside the star, if the star isn't there? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, betsy said: "If the primordial hydrogen and hellium are synthesized inside the star..." How can it be inside the star, if the star isn't there? Betsy: Population II stars were formed from primordial hydrogen...not the other way around. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: That's the point, James. Genesis is one big contradiction. It clearly separates stars from the Sun...among other contradictions. Water is a reality right from Genesis verse 2...etc...let's look at the first few verses... Okay...four days: The Earth is made first including day and night..and water which means oxygen has already been synthesized..number 8 on the Periodic Table right off the bat. Plants BEFORE the Sun? Okay...God...lol. The Sun and Moon...described as great lights...and stars...on the fourth day. In for a penny...in for a pound. Genesis is WRONG. There's no way to even bend Genesis right with word-play. This invalidates the whole works...at least as far as myself an similar thinkers go. You, I imagine...included. Really...the two threads should be merged. There is no contradiction, DOP. Read the first sentence from Genesis 1: Genesis 1 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Heavens - plural form- is defined as the universe. Therefore, the sun, the solar system, etc, were created along with the earth before the first day. Genesis 1 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. So, according to the Bible, earth was covered with water! Here's what science says: Quote Ancient Earth was a barren waterworld By David Shiga DRY land may be something of a novelty. Until around 2.5 billion years ago our planet was almost completely covered by water, a model of the early Earth suggests. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126882-600-ancient-earth-was-a-barren-waterworld/ UH. I gotta add this nextdoor. Edited July 1, 2017 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 1 hour ago, TTM said: You forgot the best part: day and night cycles before the creation of the sun or planet... Check out the explanation to DOP. Post #101. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 The Earth and Sun were NOT created in the Beginning...being the point. Genesis is wrong. No amount of snake-oil will change that Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Betsy: Population II stars were formed from primordial hydrogen...not the other way around. Whatever, DOP. The entire creation process is not revealed by the Scriptures. It does not give a blow-by-blow detailed creation. However.....practically all of Genesis, is uncannily consistent, if not compatible with science explanations or findings. To dismiss that as nothing more but coincidence, would defy logic. Edited July 1, 2017 by betsy Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 Just now, betsy said: Whatever, DOP. The entire creation process is not revealed by the Scriptures. It does not give a blow-by-blow detailed creation. However.....practically all of Genesis is uncannily consistent, if not compatible with science explanations or findings. To dismiss that as nothing more but coincidence, would defy logic. We can see these stars...read their spectrums. We can also see star formation as it's occurring...and, of course, star death. Those can be dramatic. It's not a pie-in-the-sky hypothesis. We actually can see this in action...know how it works. It's a shame that your ignorance of basic science keeps you touting a Bronze Age myth. No matter the veracity of Jesus's message...which I approve of. But, unlike some Christians that accept what science finds in the Universe, you're just one of the type that insists upon making square pegs fit into round holes...as the saying goes. It forces you to dance further and further outward trying to "make Genesis consistent" or whatever word-hash you're using now to explain away what is before your own eyes. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
TTM Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, betsy said: Check out the explanation to DOP. Post #101. I assume you mean post 108 - "heavens" including the solar system? And you explain the explicit creation of the sun, moon, and stars (which would include the other planets) on the fourth day how? 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. Edited July 1, 2017 by TTM Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, TTM said: I assume you mean post 108 - "heavens" being the solar system? And you explain the explicit creation of the sun, moon, and stars (which would include the other planets) on the fourth day how? Remember, betsy doesn't even know why oxygen is #8 on the PT. If I were to guess, when the time came around Grade 11 to choose electives...science wasn't the choice. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
TTM Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Remember, betsy doesn't even know why oxygen is #8 on the PT. If I were to guess, when the time came around Grade 11 to choose electives...science wasn't the choice. True. I picture Betsy as home schooled though Quote
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: We can see these stars...read their spectrums. We can also see star formation as it's occurring...and, of course, star death. Those can be dramatic. It's not a pie-in-the-sky hypothesis. We actually can see this in action...know how it works. It's a shame that your ignorance of basic science keeps you touting a Bronze Age myth. No matter the veracity of Jesus's message...which I approve of. But, unlike some Christians that accept what science finds in the Universe, you're just one of the type that insists upon making square pegs fit into round holes...as the saying goes. It forces you to dance further and further outward trying to "make Genesis consistent" or whatever word-hash you're using now to explain away what is before your own eyes. Well, the first law of thermodynamics had already explained about that! No new energy being created! It's just being transformed. Look at the list in the next thread! You're the one who isn't accepting what science finds. Instead, you're turning this convoluted message about metallicity - which I doubt you and James really understand - into something that isn't! The article about it says that it's nothing but a hypothesis! For scientists to say that they "BELIEVE" it to be so.......isn't a fact! They're making conjectures! They sound like religious people! You may not belong to a Christian religion.....but the way you - and certain posters - try to fit your square pegs into round holes, makes you seem more religious than I am in your zealotry to uphold your belief! At least, I entered your comfort zones and had not merely gave you blind faith for an argument! I'm using science! Yet you guys, quite so easily throw science out the window, whenever it does not agree with you! Edited July 1, 2017 by betsy Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 Can you take a few minutes to explain the First Law of Thermodynamics for me? Thanks. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, TTM said: I assume you mean post 108 - "heavens" including the solar system? And you explain the explicit creation of the sun, moon, and stars (which would include the other planets) on the fourth day how? 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. Genesis 1 says, "darkness covers the surface of the deep." So there was "darkness" on the surface of the earth. How dark it was - we don't know. The usage of darkness might be another figure of speech to indicate simply it wasn't bright as it was today. Here's one scientific explanation for that: There are scientific theories that say the atmospheric gases were thick during infant earth, and solar output and brightness wasn't as intense compared to the sun we have today. Quote According to the Standard Solar Model, stars similar to the Sun should gradually brighten over their main sequence lifetime due to contraction of the stellar core caused by fusion. When it first formed, Earth's atmosphere may have contained more greenhouse gases. Carbon dioxide concentrations may have been higher, with estimated partial pressure as large as 1,000 kPa (10 bar), because there was no bacterial photosynthesis to convert the CO2 gas to organic carbon and gaseous oxygen. Methane, a very active greenhouse gas that reacts with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide and water vapor, may have been more prevalent as well, with a mixing ratio of 10−4 (100 parts per million by volume).[7][8] Based on a study of geological sulfur isotopes, in 2009 a group of scientists including Yuichiro Ueno from the University of Tokyo proposed that carbonyl sulfide (OCS) was present in the Archean atmosphere. Carbonyl sulfide is an efficient greenhouse gas and the scientists estimate that the additional greenhouse effect would have been sufficient to prevent Earth from freezing over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox#cite_note-Pavlov-8 God must've removed much of the dark cover (atmospheric gases), when He said, "Let there be light." He must've been referring to the light of the sun (which was already created at the beginning). Genesis 1:14 indicate that God removed the thick layers of gases that covers the earth so that the sun, moon and stars shone through. Take note that Genesis 1:14 is more detailed than Genesis 1:3-5. Genesis 1:14 - 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God created night and day, and seasons. --------------------------------------- Another scientific explanation for the "let there be light...." comes from the book "The Genesis Enigma." It's eyes. Quote Until the first creatures on earth evolved eyes, in a sense, the sun and moon didn't exist. There was no creature on earth to see them, nor the light they cast. When Genesis says: 'Let there be lights... To divide the day from the night,' it is talking about eyes. 'The very first eye on earth effectively turned on the lights for animal behaviour,' writes Professor Parker, 'and consequently for further rapid evolution.' And yet again, that's what Genesis says happened, and in the correct environment too. In the sea. For on the very next day of Creation, the fifth day: 'God said, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life."' That is exactly what happened. Life that had hitherto been lived in the dark, by simple, slow-moving, worm-like creatures, erupted into dazzling diversity. We know all about it from the world famous Burgess Shale fossils. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200486/The-Genesis-enigma-How-DID-Bible-evolution-life-3-000-years-Darwin.html#ixzz4lZv1cABL -------------------------------------------------------------- One thing that's obvious, the Bible has given us a glimpse of creation - but it isn't a blow-by-blow detailed account. Edited July 1, 2017 by betsy Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 Just now, betsy said: Go to the other thread and read the article I gave. No...I don't think you understand Conservation of Energy...explain it for me. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 Metallicity is the percentage of a star that is NOT hydrogen or helium. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 42 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Can you take a few minutes to explain the First Law of Thermodynamics for me? Thanks. Go to the other thread and read the article I gave. Quote
betsy Posted July 1, 2017 Author Report Posted July 1, 2017 39 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: No...I don't think you understand Conservation of Energy...explain it for me. I'm not claiming or pretending to be a scientist, DOP. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 1 minute ago, betsy said: Go to the other thread and read the article I gave. No...I'd like you to explain it in your own words, thanks. Not only that, I'd like you to explain how it relates to your argument so we all understand your position. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 1 minute ago, betsy said: I'm not claiming or pretending to be a scientist, DOP. You're the one apparently using science and claiming it's proof of the Bible's veracity. So explain it... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2017 Report Posted July 1, 2017 (Time passes) ΔU = Q-W C'mon betsy...you can do it. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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