Terrorist group in Canada

[JWayne625]

Calling itself by the initials IRI, the group sent a message to newspapers La Presse and Le Journal de Montréal and radio station CKAC.

It said its members set the charge to denounce the ''pillaging'' of Quebec's resources by the U.S.

This IRI group or whatever these bunch of nuts are calling themselves have gotten it wrong because James Bay belongs to Newfoundland & Labrador not the Province of Quebec. It is just wishful thinking on the part of Quebec to have that land deeded to them, in fact it is time for Quebec to pay Newfoundland a fair share of the money they are making from the James Bay Hydro Electric Project.

Contrary to popular Canadian beliief, Canadian's are not immune from experiencing terrorist attacks, and although this particular attack involved only property, the reality is that people could have been killed as a result of what this group was attempting to accomplish. Wake up Canada, nobody will be safe in this world until terrorism is beaten. Sitting back and thinking we are somehow immune from this type of thing is nieve at best. All of these nut-case groups have their own grievances.

[Choke]

Terrorism has existed longer than man and will continue to exist as long as there are living beings capable of fear.

[shackwacky]

It's not really terrorism, as much as the fear mongers would like to have you think so. More like vandalism on a grand scale.

[kimmy]

It said its members set the charge to denounce the ''pillaging'' of Quebec's resources by the U.S.

What do these morons envision doing with all that electricity, if not selling it to the Americans at a hefty profit? Stockpile it in car-batteries for some distant future when ELECTRONS are scarce?

-kimmy

[seabee]

... James Bay belongs to Newfoundland & Labrador not the Province of Quebec.

Aren't you confusing James Bay with Churchill Falls?

[Newfie Canadian]

... James Bay belongs to Newfoundland & Labrador not the Province of Quebec.

Aren't you confusing James Bay with Churchill Falls?

I do believe so.

I thought James Bay was on the opposite side of Québec from Labrador.

[August1991]

What do these morons envision doing with all that electricity, if not selling it to the Americans at a hefty profit? Stockpile it in car-batteries for some distant future when ELECTRONS are scarce?

Giggle, giggle.

I pay about 5 cents/kwh but in NY the retail price is around 15 cents. The Charest government wants to increase domestic prices (and decrease domestic consumption) so that Quebec can export more electricity to the US.

At present, Quebec exports the most electricity of any province. In 2002, that was 1.3 million MWh for C$105.4 million. (That's about 8 cents/kwh.)

It is just wishful thinking on the part of Quebec to have that land deeded to them, in fact it is time for Quebec to pay Newfoundland a fair share of the money they are making from the James Bay Hydro Electric Project.

Churchill Falls is in Labrador (only the most extreme nationalists claim it for Quebec). The Churchill Falls only became viable when Quebec agreed to transmit the electricity across its territory. A 65 year contract was signed in 1969 (going to 2034) in which Hydro Quebec buys the power at rock bottom prices (around half a cent/kwh). (Churchill is still profitable at that price.)

Incidentally, this power is used in Quebec and other power is exported. I find ironic that Newfoundlanders want the benefits of a Labrador resource. I also blame Smallwood (another incompetent like Arafat, Castro et al) for the deal. Lesage and Levesque were prepared to offer more earlier.

Very interesting history. I have been to St. Anthony but never the Lower North Shore nor Labrador.

[Newfie Canadian]

I have been to St. Anthony but never the Lower North Shore nor Labrador.

Beautiful country, take lots of fly repellent.

I also blame Smallwood (another incompetent like Arafat, Castro et al) for the deal. Lesage and Levesque were prepared to offer more earlier.

Smallwood was to blame. Although there is speculation that the feds strongarmed Smallwood into taking the deal. I don't know, I'm just saying what has been said here. Personally, I think Smallwood thought it was money in his pocket and that was it.

I find ironic that Newfoundlanders want the benefits of a Labrador resource

Unless or until Labrador separates from Newfoundland, where's the irony?

I would also suggest that if you want to go that route, Labradorians are even more miffed over the deal.

Was there any coverage in Québec last year or earlier this year when Williams suggested that the Lower Churchill would be developed without using Québec as the middle man?

I'm just curious.

It should also be interesting when the current deal is up.

[Guest eureka]

I spent several months working in Labrador a long time ago. Close to where Labrador City is now but where there were only trees at the time. I know what you mean by the need for fly repellant. I saw nothing like it before and nothing since.

When Newfoundland does develop the Lower Churchill or any other that should cross Quebc, it should demand that Ottawa apply Sec92.(10) of the Constitution and declare it to be in the national interest. Quebec should not again be allowed to blackmail anyone.

Smallwood did a lot of things wrong but it was, in part, at Quebec's insistence that Newfoundland was forced onto a bad deal on Churchill Falls. It could not have exported the electricity without.

[August1991]

Quebec should not again be allowed to blackmail anyone.  Quebec should not again be allowed to blackmail anyone.

That's wrong, eureka.

Go back to the 1960s. To get the financing in place, Nfld needed in fact a guarantor and that's what Quebec offered. By having the signed contract, Nfld was able to get the foreign investors to go ahead with what was a very risky project at the time.

Except maybe the Soviets, no one had transmitted electricity over such long distances, nor built a dam in such a remote place. No one at the time knew what was about to happen to oil prices.

In the same sense that you can't get a mortgage without having life insurance, Nfld got financing by buying insurance through a lower agreed selling price.

Was there any coverage in Québec last year or earlier this year when Williams suggested that the Lower Churchill would be developed without using Québec as the middle man? I'm just curious.

I didn't see anything in the French press about the Lower Churchill (although I may have missed it.) In fact, few people in Quebec talk about this. I find this depressing because I have seen estimates that this deal alone accounts for all of the profits of Hydro Quebec. IOW, HQ is very inefficient but appears otherwise because of this chance good fortune.

It should also be interesting when the current deal is up.

That will be in 2034? As the date gets closer, watch for HQ bond prices to fall and Nfld bond prices to rise.

Although there is speculation that the feds strongarmed Smallwood into taking the deal.

I've heard that too and I know Trudeau took a personal interest in the deal. I don't know if that was to thank Smallwood for his support in the 1968 Lib leadership race or as a way to physically "connect" Quebec to ROC.

Unless or until Labrador separates from Newfoundland, where's the irony? I would also suggest that if you want to go that route, Labradorians are even more miffed over the deal.

That's kind of my point. It seems to be the people in St. John's who make the most noise about this.

----

A minor detail for fun. I understand that at Niagara Fall, 90% of the water is diverted for hydro leaving so that 10% is left for the Falls and tourists. In the case of Churchill Falls, I guess all the water is diverted so there are no more falls.

What do these morons envision doing with all that electricity, if not selling it to the Americans at a hefty profit? Stockpile it in car-batteries for some distant future when ELECTRONS are scarce?

Giggle, giggle.

This idea in fact is not moronic since it is possible to "stockpile electricity" as water behind dams for future hydro generation when rainfall is low.

[Guest eureka]

Not really, August. Quebec would only allow the transmission across the province without a deal on its terms.

[Guest eureka]

That, of course, should have read "with a deal..."

The act is reminiscent of the Lytton 5 and their Vancouver Island escapade. The Q ? (what the heck is the name of that town north of Vancouver. I think my memory must be failing since, when in Vancouver, I had a connection with that sabotage - not on the side of the terrorists.

[August1991]

Not really, August. Quebec would only allow the transmission across the province without a deal on its terms.

In a one-on-one negotiation, you are as powerful as the other guy. If the deal goes through, there's a lot of money on the table. If not, all is lost. So, how to make it happen and how to share it? Well, that's what a negotiation is all about. (With some concern for any future deals...)

Nfld and Quebec both needed each other - without either's agreement, there was no deal.

Not quite. In the case of Churchill Falls in the 1960s, there was maybe a lot of money on the table, but then again, maybe not. It was a very risky venture.

When Quebec signed on to buy the power, that meant the foreign investors knew the project would, sorry the expression, carry water. As a result, the foreign investors gave Nfld (Brinco) the money.

This aspect gave Quebec a negotiating edge - it provided the insurance and collected the insurance premium.

From Quebec's perspective, eureka, you must understand. Hydro-Quebec was 5 or 6 years old at the time. Quebec politicians were entirely new to such negotiations. They were confused and innocent about business, fearful of being ripped-off but competitive, ambitious and hard-headed in life. But given the Quiet Revolution, also well-meaning and hopeful. Consider alone what Eric Kierans thought of it all.

The Churchill Falls deal is an interesting story.

[seabee]

Consider alone what Eric Kierans thought of it all.

Consider alone what Eric Kierans thought of it all.

Just as an aside. It is important that Erik Kierans be remembered. He is an unsung hero of the Quiet Revolition in Québec, which would probably have been an economic fiasco had it not been of him. Thanks to the Irish; they helped make Québec what it is today!

[Newfie Canadian]

I agree primarily with August on this.

Another thought I would put out there from the NL side is the misunderstanding or lack of foresight on the part of Smallwood and others here in regards to how important, how much in demand and how profitable the hydro-electricty would be worth in the future. Not necessarily 5 or 10 or 15 years down the road, but 25-35 years.

[Guest eureka]

I remember the negotiations. I remember the reports of Quebec digging in over the terms of transmission.

I also remember Eric Kierans well with reason since a cousin of his was a colleague of mine in the "battle" of Quebec. Kierans was a hero of the Quiet Revolution but he was revolted by the ethnicity that commandeered the activity.

[August1991]

Another thought I would put out there from the NL side is the misunderstanding or lack of foresight on the part of Smallwood and others here in regards to how important, how much in demand and how profitable the hydro-electricty would be worth in the future. Not necessarily 5 or 10 or 15 years down the road, but 25-35 years.

I agree. If Nfld had just waited a few more years (like 1974), the deal would have been very different. But who could have known?

[Newfie Canadian]

But who could have known?

Québec?

I guess so. Smallwood et al would have had to have been a little psychic.

[August1991]

But who could have known?

Québec?

I guess so. Smallwood et al would have had to have been a little psychic.

One thing I have wondered about is why they signed such a long agreement (65 years) and if I understand properly, the price drops about half way through the contract. (Is that right?)

The only thing I can figure is that the financial backers wanted such a contract. That's what happened with the Channel Tunnel which is not profitable now I believe.

[maplesyrup]

Consider alone what Eric Kierans thought of it all.

Consider alone what Eric Kierans thought of it all.

Just as an aside. It is important that Erik Kierans be remembered. He is an unsung hero of the Quiet Revolition in Québec, which would probably have been an economic fiasco had it not been of him. Thanks to the Irish; they helped make Québec what it is today!

"I was a federalist," he wrote in his 2001 memoir, Remembering, "not in the sense that the word now seems to command — one who believes in the domination of Ottawa over the provinces — but in the old sense of one who supports the union of disparate provinces in a wider federation, for the greater good of all."

He praised the New Democratic Party's economic policy, criticized Social Credit economic theory, attacked what he later called "the complacency and indifference" in English Canada toward Quebec, and denounced some measures in the Gordon budget.

He was responsible for assisting Rene Levesque in departing the Liberal Party. I wonder where Eric ended up on Canada's list of 100 top Canadians.

[Newfie Canadian]

I believe it's more like Hydro-Québec buys the power at 1966 prices and sells it at conventional prices, which has fluctuated over the years. (I may be corrected on this.)

I don't know why they would sign a long term deal without some kind of price adjustment or renegotiate clause, and it's a good question. Wasn't very business like.

[Guest eureka]

Type Churchikk Falls Power into search and the first couple of items are speeches by Tobin that explain clearly how Newfoundland was blackmailed and held to ransom by Quebed.

I would link them if I knew a way.

[Newfie Canadian]

Tobin is a weasel.

Here's a guy who spent so many years in opposition in Ottawa, left to be Premier of NL, served a term and a bit, left here (after saying he'd stay until the end of the term) to go back to Ottawa, didn't get what he wanted there and left like a baby who couldn't get anything in a candy store.

If he told me the sun came up this morning I'd go check, I wouldn't take his word for it.

Many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians hold that view though, but I suspect that it isn't based out of knowledge of the events or history, but more out of frustration with the revenue shares and Québec's unwillingness to renegotiate before the deal runs out.

[Guest eureka]

It is not relevant that you think him a weasel. He relates the history of Churchill Falls and it is an expansion on what I was posting.

You can look at other links for more congenial , to you, commentators. They will confirm the details.

[Newfie Canadian]

I have seen other sources that all say there was pressure on Smallwood to go with a bad deal (I

mentioned that there may have been pressure from Pearson to get it done.)

I confess I haven't sized up Tobin's speeches to gauge his views.