Remember when Harper was criticized over Erebus.

[PIK]

He was scorned for making the announcement and for even being interested in the project, but the finding of the terror under Trudeau's watch went south fast. Just wondering.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/emails-from-discovery-of-hms-terror-show-bad-blood-secrecy-behind-the-scenes

[H10]

Harper was a terrible lead, glad he was gone, he was good when he had a minority government and cut our taxes by 1% on spending and made a tfsa, other than that though, terrible leadder he destroyed the economy despite all time high oil prices.  Once he got a majority, he became useless and worthless, glad he is gone.

[blueblood]

49 minutes ago, hernanday said:

Harper was a terrible lead, glad he was gone, he was good when he had a minority government and cut our taxes by 1% on spending and made a tfsa, other than that though, terrible leadder he destroyed the economy despite all time high oil prices.  Once he got a majority, he became useless and worthless, glad he is gone.

He had a budget to bring back into balance which happened.  

The 08 recession hit central Canada hard and if not for sky high house prices in Toronto, they would still be clawing out of the recession 

[PIK]

55 minutes ago, hernanday said:

Harper was a terrible lead, glad he was gone, he was good when he had a minority government and cut our taxes by 1% on spending and made a tfsa, other than that though, terrible leadder he destroyed the economy despite all time high oil prices.  Once he got a majority, he became useless and worthless, glad he is gone.

And Trudeau is better. LOL  I am hearing many people that hated him, now saying they wish he was going up against trump, not Trudeau. Harper did what he said he would do, he did not lie thru his teeth.

[cybercoma]

4 hours ago, PIK said:

He was scorned for making the announcement and for even being interested in the project, but the finding of the terror under Trudeau's watch went south fast. Just wondering.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/emails-from-discovery-of-hms-terror-show-bad-blood-secrecy-behind-the-scenes

When I search the forum for Erebus, this is the only thread that seems to come up. Almost everyone seems to support it. So no, I don't remember people scorning Harper.

[Omni]

13 minutes ago, blueblood said:

He had a budget to bring back into balance which happened.  

The 08 recession hit central Canada hard and if not for sky high house prices in Toronto, they would still be clawing out of the recession 

Lots of smoke and mirrors in a final "balanced" budget. not to mention one time sale of GM stocks and robbing the "rainy day fund". But I guess he wanted to show at least one.

[PIK]

3 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

When I search the forum for Erebus, this is the only thread that seems to come up. Almost everyone seems to support it. So no, I don't remember people scorning Harper.

Then it must have been another board. But harper was in control, things went smoothly till now. I remember him being ripped for being a control freak on it and making the announcement himself,instead of a muzzled scientist. Thanks for looking that up.

Edited January 10, 2017 by PIK

[SpankyMcFarland]

I don't remember when Harper was criticized over the Erebus. Why would he be? 

[H10]

8 hours ago, PIK said:

And Trudeau is better. LOL  I am hearing many people that hated him, now saying they wish he was going up against trump, not Trudeau. Harper did what he said he would do, he did not lie thru his teeth.

You must have not listened to Harper's long list of broken promises.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2008/02/05/broken_promises_piling_up_for_harper.html

[H10]

8 hours ago, blueblood said:

He had a budget to bring back into balance which happened.  

The 08 recession hit central Canada hard and if not for sky high house prices in Toronto, they would still be clawing out of the recession 

The policies need to be focused on the majority, aka central canada and bc.  We can't have policies that just benefit tiny provinces with no people like saskatchewan and alberta.

[blueblood]

19 minutes ago, hernanday said:

The policies need to be focused on the majority, aka central canada and bc.  We can't have policies that just benefit tiny provinces with no people like saskatchewan and alberta.

And is inflating a housing market the way to do that?  Ontario has horrible policies and massive debt, Quebec has Byzantine policies as well.  Bc is enjoying a housing bubble.  How is that sustainable?  How does that now compete with a market that is going to slash taxes and regulations?  How do we buy things when our dollar takes a bath?  

Our country does well in producing natural resources and providing means to finance them.  How does Ontario now compete with Michigan with carbon pricing, runaway electricity costs, and higher taxes after Michigan made itself competitive again along with clear policy from the next administration to lower taxes and regulations?

the policies of the smaller provinces have proven effective and are examples to follow

[Omni]

24 minutes ago, blueblood said:

And is inflating a housing market the way to do that?  Ontario has horrible policies and massive debt, Quebec has Byzantine policies as well.  Bc is enjoying a housing bubble.  How is that sustainable?  How does that now compete with a market that is going to slash taxes and regulations?  How do we buy things when our dollar takes a bath?  

Our country does well in producing natural resources and providing means to finance them.  How does Ontario now compete with Michigan with carbon pricing, runaway electricity costs, and higher taxes after Michigan made itself competitive again along with clear policy from the next administration to lower taxes and regulations?

the policies of the smaller provinces have proven effective and are examples to follow

And this has what to do with Erebus?

[H10]

5 hours ago, blueblood said:

And is inflating a housing market the way to do that?  Ontario has horrible policies and massive debt, Quebec has Byzantine policies as well.  Bc is enjoying a housing bubble.  How is that sustainable?  How does that now compete with a market that is going to slash taxes and regulations?  How do we buy things when our dollar takes a bath?  

This comment is so bizarrely ignorant I must assume you are a foreigner.  Ontario has massive debt because Ontario had buoyed the entire economy under equalization so that the provinces in the west and east (minus bc) could survive and have equal levels of services.  Frankly it is ONtario who needs to separate because they pay so much tax and receive so little from the federal government historically speaking.  Our dollar falling is a good thing, because it means we can export more goods, frankly I hope the dollar goes down to 60 cents.

 

5 hours ago, blueblood said:

Our country does well in producing natural resources and providing means to finance them.  How does Ontario now compete with Michigan with carbon pricing, runaway electricity costs, and higher taxes after Michigan made itself competitive again along with clear policy from the next administration to lower taxes and regulations?

the policies of the smaller provinces have proven effective and are examples to follow

You do not produce natural resources, you dig them out the ground and Alberta cannot even do that  right because the conservatives screwed it up so bad the Albertans went nuts and voted in an NDP government and they are now heavily in debt.

Ontario needs to throw on a carbon tax on all incoming products so that they can compete.    The smaller provinces are entirely dependent on the larger provinces to finance their health, education etc systems.  Ontario is the only province in the long run with any history of being well run and not being entirely dependent on federal government.

 

[blueblood]

11 hours ago, hernanday said:

This comment is so bizarrely ignorant I must assume you are a foreigner.  Ontario has massive debt because Ontario had buoyed the entire economy under equalization so that the provinces in the west and east (minus bc) could survive and have equal levels of services.  Frankly it is ONtario who needs to separate because they pay so much tax and receive so little from the federal government historically speaking.  Our dollar falling is a good thing, because it means we can export more goods, frankly I hope the dollar goes down to 60 cents.

Ontario has has the largest sub sovereign debt in the world because its politicians can't organize a two car parade.  Ontario has been a have not province for the better part of a decade, no equalization payments going out...  Ontario has considerable influence in federal decisions due to seat count, it also receives federal support being the seat of power in Canada.  Exporting products means nothing if you can't buy things, which Canadians tend to buy a lot of American products.  The dollar dropping like it has is comparable to a large tax increase.

 

11 hours ago, hernanday said:

You do not produce natural resources, you dig them out the ground and Alberta cannot even do that  right because the conservatives screwed it up so bad the Albertans went nuts and voted in an NDP government and they are now heavily in debt.

Alberta did do that right, Ralph bucks were sent out before oil hit $100 and budgets were balanced.  Going to the left cost the Alberta Tories the house.

11 hours ago, hernanday said:

Ontario needs to throw on a carbon tax on all incoming products so that they can compete.    The smaller provinces are entirely dependent on the larger provinces to finance their health, education etc systems.  Ontario is the only province in the long run with any history of being well run and not being entirely dependent on federal government.

 

Higher taxes, which makes customers poorer.  Ontario has a history of being poorly managed- Rae days?  Was managed good under Harris and then went for a nose dive.  It's going to be hard to compete with newly business friendly Michigan with high electricity costs, more regulation, carbon taxes.  Ford and Chrysler are building plants in the USA.  Where are Canada's plants?

[blueblood]

To save this thread, it shows the efficiency of the private sector in finding Erebus 

[H10]

2 hours ago, blueblood said:

Ontario has has the largest sub sovereign debt in the world because its politicians can't organize a two car parade.  Ontario has been a have not province for the better part of a decade, no equalization payments going out...  Ontario has considerable influence in federal decisions due to seat count, it also receives federal support being the seat of power in Canada.  Exporting products means nothing if you can't buy things, which Canadians tend to buy a lot of American products.  The dollar dropping like it has is comparable to a large tax increase.

No, it doesn't.

Because they got tired of being financially disciplined so all our money goes to support the provinces who consistently under produce.  Ontario still sends more to the federal government than they get back, because of its size, it is just not realistic for it to be a have not province in the way alberta was for decades.  The federal support is weak given that ontario paid all the taxes for the last 60 years that was used to develop the nation. Then we need to stop buying imported good, and high dollar supports thaat.

 

 

2 hours ago, blueblood said:

 

Alberta did do that right, Ralph bucks were sent out before oil hit $100 and budgets were balanced.  Going to the left cost the Alberta Tories the house.

 

Why did the tories go to the left?  Because their right win policies failed!

 

2 hours ago, blueblood said:

Higher taxes, which makes customers poorer.  Ontario has a history of being poorly managed- Rae days?  Was managed good under Harris and then went for a nose dive.  It's going to be hard to compete with newly business friendly Michigan with high electricity costs, more regulation, carbon taxes.  Ford and Chrysler are building plants in the USA.  Where are Canada's plants?

Ontario has a history of largely good government until harris and wynne and eves government destroyed it on purpose.  Lowering the dollar will lure them back to build plants on the cheap here.

 

[blueblood]

1 hour ago, hernanday said:

No, it doesn't.

Because they got tired of being financially disciplined so all our money goes to support the provinces who consistently under produce.  Ontario still sends more to the federal government than they get back, because of its size, it is just not realistic for it to be a have not province in the way alberta was for decades.  The federal support is weak given that ontario paid all the taxes for the last 60 years that was used to develop the nation. Then we need to stop buying imported good, and high dollar supports thaat.

so because Ontario was "tired" of being fiscally responsible, the people decided to become the most indebted subsovereign area in the world?  Is that it?  I'm sure fiscally responsible ontarians would disagree with their taxes jacked, carbon pricing, and obscene electricity rates.  Alberta has been a HAVE province for decades, now bc, sask has joined the club.  Ontario is now a HAVE NOT province.  A high dollar means we are doing a good job exporting and running an economy which benefits us as the value of the goods we make goes up.  Ontario is on life support and trudeau won't fix it.

 

 

Why did the tories go to the left?  Because their right win policies failed!

The Alberta Tories went left to try and win votes in the inner cities.  And that's when the province went from a surplus pre 100$ oil to structural deficits.  The only failure was abandoning Ralph kliens plan

Ontario has a history of largely good government until harris and wynne and eves government destroyed it on purpose.  Lowering the dollar will lure them back to build plants on the cheap here.

Ontario has a history of mismanagement and the largest subsovereign debt proves it.  A lower dollar won't bring plants back when companies have to pay for expensive hydro, taxes, and carbon pricing.  Last I heard ford, Chrysler, and gm are ramping up production south of the border.  You don't attract business when they are scared of what hair brained idea is coming out of the Ontario legislature.

 

[H10]

6 hours ago, blueblood said:

so because Ontario was "tired" of being fiscally responsible, the people decided to become the most indebted subsovereign area in the world?  Is that it?  I'm sure fiscally responsible ontarians would disagree with their taxes jacked, carbon pricing, and obscene electricity rates.  Alberta has been a HAVE province for decades, now bc, sask has joined the club.  Ontario is now a HAVE NOT province.  A high dollar means we are doing a good job exporting and running an economy which benefits us as the value of the goods we make goes up.  Ontario is on life support and trudeau won't fix it.

Ontario is not the most indebted area in the world.

We had rolling brown outs and poision water under the Harris eves government and poor medical services.  He sold off public assets and the taxes were still very high.

Carbon pricing in my view is dumb, it needs to come from the national level if it is going to be done and there needs to be tariffs on foreign products to balance out for them not having our environmental standards.  We do have high electricity rates.  However had we not had to pay into equalization to give the other provinces a reasonable standard of living or equal standards of living then we would have a huge reserve of cash we'd be sitting on so much so that we'd probably have a provincial wide fund and we'd probably not even have to pay much taxes.  Ontario was ruined by the federal governments equalization policies. 

Electricity pricing is pretty bad, but if we want clean air, we have to pay for it, and incompetent government made bad contracts.

 

A high dollar has historically harmed Ontario manufacturers because it makes the exports uncompetitive in price, a low dollar expands exports, even the swiss, germans and japanese and chinese get this, they devalue their dollar whenever it gets too high.  The only benefit of the eu to germany is the weak economies allow germans to export in a way that would be impossible if they had their own dollar, they will prop up greece for ever.

 

How many years throughout the 60s to the 1990s with low oil prices was Alberta a have not province, for how many decades /years? This is the first time Ontario has ever been a have not province, any other time it got close the feds would re-jiggle the formula to ensure it would not qualify. And Alberta is now a have not province as well, so your criticism of ONtario is illogical.

 

Quote

The Alberta Tories went left to try and win votes in the inner cities.  And that's when the province went from a surplus pre 100$ oil to structural deficits.  The only failure was abandoning Ralph kliens plan

Inner cities of Alberta?  Are you American, because Alberta doesn't have "inner cities" you could hardly call Calgary or Edmonton cities. Alberta's "Cities" are not exactly leftist, they get their economy depends on right wing politics.  The wild rose party would not be competitive if that were true.

 

Quote

Ontario has a history of mismanagement and the largest subsovereign debt proves it.  A lower dollar won't bring plants back when companies have to pay for expensive hydro, taxes, and carbon pricing.  Last I heard ford, Chrysler, and gm are ramping up production south of the border.  You don't attract business when they are scared of what hair brained idea is coming out of the Ontario legislature.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/cost-of-government-debt-in-canada-2016.pdf

Even the right wing loons and fraser institute say your lying.  The most indebted provinces per person are quebec then NL.

The low dollar will offset other cost. If we get the dollar down from 75 cents to 50 cents, then you reduce cost across the board by 33%. Hydro is expensive and taxes are moderately high and carbon pricing is not that bad, but if we can get the dollar down, then we can draw in and keep manufacturing jobs here. Trudeau needs to ramp up spending and devalue the dollar down to 50 cents so Ontario economy can rise with Quebec.

 

[blueblood]

https://www.google.ca/amp/business.financialpost.com/news/economy/with-twice-the-debt-of-california-ontario-is-now-the-worlds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower/amp?client=safari

most indebted subsovereign borrower.  Ontario will continue to be a laggard the way it's going. Not even a 50 cent dollar can fix that and wouldn't as our purchasing power would be worthless.  Should it be a 25 cent dollar?

companies don't like paying tax and electricity and high wages, guess where that doesn't happen and it's just across the line, a low dollar won't compete with that.

Edited January 12, 2017 by blueblood

[PIK]

8 hours ago, hernanday said:

Ontario is not the most indebted area in the world.

We had rolling brown outs and poision water under the Harris eves government and poor medical services.  He sold off public assets and the taxes were still very high.

Carbon pricing in my view is dumb, it needs to come from the national level if it is going to be done and there needs to be tariffs on foreign products to balance out for them not having our environmental standards.  We do have high electricity rates.  However had we not had to pay into equalization to give the other provinces a reasonable standard of living or equal standards of living then we would have a huge reserve of cash we'd be sitting on so much so that we'd probably have a provincial wide fund and we'd probably not even have to pay much taxes.  Ontario was ruined by the federal governments equalization policies. 

Electricity pricing is pretty bad, but if we want clean air, we have to pay for it, and incompetent government made bad contracts.

 

A high dollar has historically harmed Ontario manufacturers because it makes the exports uncompetitive in price, a low dollar expands exports, even the swiss, germans and japanese and chinese get this, they devalue their dollar whenever it gets too high.  The only benefit of the eu to germany is the weak economies allow germans to export in a way that would be impossible if they had their own dollar, they will prop up greece for ever.

 

How many years throughout the 60s to the 1990s with low oil prices was Alberta a have not province, for how many decades /years? This is the first time Ontario has ever been a have not province, any other time it got close the feds would re-jiggle the formula to ensure it would not qualify. And Alberta is now a have not province as well, so your criticism of ONtario is illogical.

 

Inner cities of Alberta?  Are you American, because Alberta doesn't have "inner cities" you could hardly call Calgary or Edmonton cities. Alberta's "Cities" are not exactly leftist, they get their economy depends on right wing politics.  The wild rose party would not be competitive if that were true.

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/cost-of-government-debt-in-canada-2016.pdf

Even the right wing loons and fraser institute say your lying.  The most indebted provinces per person are quebec then NL.

The low dollar will offset other cost. If we get the dollar down from 75 cents to 50 cents, then you reduce cost across the board by 33%. Hydro is expensive and taxes are moderately high and carbon pricing is not that bad, but if we can get the dollar down, then we can draw in and keep manufacturing jobs here. Trudeau needs to ramp up spending and devalue the dollar down to 50 cents so Ontario economy can rise with Quebec.

 

You're insane.

[PIK]

Lets remember NL has oil and hydro and Quebec is sitting on a lot of it and a lot of hydro. We have no oil and our hydro has pretty well shut down so use can use the expensive wind and sun.

[H10]

6 hours ago, blueblood said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/business.financialpost.com/news/economy/with-twice-the-debt-of-california-ontario-is-now-the-worlds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower/amp?client=safari

most indebted subsovereign borrower.  Ontario will continue to be a laggard the way it's going. Not even a 50 cent dollar can fix that and wouldn't as our purchasing power would be worthless.  Should it be a 25 cent dollar?

companies don't like paying tax and electricity and high wages, guess where that doesn't happen and it's just across the line, a low dollar won't compete with that.

The headline is inaccurate, it never even explained how it is the most indebted, on a per capita basis, quebec and NL are more indebted.  On a total basis

California Debt is over $400 billion, which appears more than $100 billion over Ontario's.

 

http://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/California-s-400-billion-debt-worries-analysts-6812264.php

Ontario's debt is $300 billion (canadian so you knock off around 33% for exchange rate), which is like 200 million american)

http://globalnews.ca/news/2845864/reality-check-is-ontarios-debt-really-that-bad/

 

60-50 cents is the sweet spot, we did very well in Ontario when Chritien was in power and lowered the dollar, same for paul martin.  Low dollar decreases cost so much that it wipes out the disadvantages of that.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

11 minutes ago, hernanday said:

The headline is inaccurate, it never even explained how it is the most indebted, on a per capita basis, quebec and NL are more indebted.  On a total basis

California Debt is over $400 billion, which appears more than $100 billion over Ontario's.

 

California's GDP is more than four times that of Ontario's....California is the seventh biggest economy...in the world (bigger than all of Canada).   Debt to GDP also matters, and Ontario's debt to GDP ratio is nearly 40%:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_government_debt

[?Impact]

I'm not sure what Ontario finances has to do with federal politics and the Erebus.

[H10]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

California's GDP is more than four times that of Ontario's....California is the seventh biggest economy...in the world (bigger than all of Canada).   Debt to GDP also matters, and Ontario's debt to GDP ratio is nearly 40%:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_government_debt

What is the point you are trying to make, a previous commentator claimed Ontario had the most debt in the world at the sub-national level.  It is demonstrably false.

Did you just ignore all the previous words in the comment where I stated that Quebec and NL have higher per capita levels of debt?

Ontario is the largest province in Canada, it is mainly a manufacturing economy.  Its long term performance is tied to the national government in charge because it is dependent on a low dollar to usd (50-60 cents range) in order to be competitive.  It is also probably true that Alberta who exports oil but imports a great deal of equipment would probably prefer a high cad dollar, which are the policies that Harper pursued, and which forced the economy of Ontario and central canada into huge amounts of debt.  Further, Ontario wouldn't even have any debt if they were allowed to keep the all the money they made instead of having to pay out hundreds of billions above its debt levels to support Quebec, Alberta, the maritimes and all the other provinces who have ridden the coat tails of Ontario historically.

And before you say "but Ontariooooo is a habe not", yeah the only have not province who pays 3 billion more into the equilization program than it receives.  It is not possible for Ontario to be a true have not in the manner that the other provinces have been, because it is so large, there is no way the other provinces would be willing to cover the cost.  The GTA has a greater GDP than all of Alberta, it is simply not possible and to still be fair to any degree.