Palestine - Israel issue / Information Pool

[Altai]

I started this topic to archive all the informations related with the issue. I will divide it into sections and will update OP from time to time.  You can post your claims and informations together its link to a website/source. We would discuss all the claims/informations if there is a need to discuss. 

First of all we need to start with the origin of Palestinians and Israelis in the region.

Go ahead !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HISTORY OF PALESTINIAN LANDS FROM ANCIENT TIMES TO TODAY


- BC 16. century : Egyptian Pharaohs seize Jarusalem.

- Bedouin tribes attack Egyptians and they control city for a long time.

- BC 1301-1317 : Egypt takes control again.

- BC 1200 : Palestine lands are called as "Canaan". There is a people called Canaanites living in the region. There are people named Philistines living at the coastal sides of Canaan.

- Jews first started to live in the regions which called "West Bank" today.

- Palestinian people were living at the coastal sides of Canaan.

- BC 1000 : Jews take under control Palestinians and other Canaan people in 200 years and establish first Jewish state called "Kingdom of Israel".

- BC 586 : Babylon Kingdom seizes the lands and kicks all the Jews from Palestinian lands to Babylonia.

- BC 538 : Iranians seizes the lands again and allows Jews to back to the lands.

- BC 332 Alex Great seizes Palestinian lands including Jarusalem.

- BC 323 : Egypt seizes Palestinian lands again.

- Seleukias (Greeks) from Syria seizes city.

- BC 63 : Romans seizes city.

- 66-69 : Jews revolts against Roman Empire. Which is called as the Great Revolt.

- Persians seizes Syria and Palestinian lands.

- 628 : Romans seize Palestinian lands again.

- 634-636 : Muslims seize southern part and northern part in two years and take it from Roman Empire. (Post 3)



- Today's Lebanese people are genetically descendants of ancient Canaanites and Phoenicians, so the first peoples who were living in today's Palestinian lands.  http://bit.ly/2jn4I9S

Edited January 12, 2017 by Altai

[Guest]

Well, first, there was light. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details after that...

[Altai]

Now I start with conquest of Arab's.

When it was seized by Arab armies, it was under the control of Romans. Arabs seized Syria, Jordan Valley, Khorassan. Then they turned towards Palestine lands. Palestine region responsibility was belong to a person named Amr İbn'ul As. He was a clever soldier and commander. Roman commander named Artabun who is responsible of Palestine region was also a good commander. Amr was trying to find a way to beat Artabun and seize Palestine and Jarusalem. He dressed like a Muslim envoy and went to a castle to talk with Artabun. His purpose was to examine region and castles closely. Artabun was quite suspicious that this envoy was Amr himself or one of his best soldiers. Then Artabun secretly ordered his soldiers to kill this envoy by rolling a big rock (wtf ) Amr realized that Romans are going to kill him and he said that "I am OK with what you told me but I am only one of in totally 10 consultants and now I leave the castle and I will take all the other consultants with me and will come back again". Artabun though that if they allow him to go and back together 10 other men, they would kill all of them at the same time (LoooL idiot). Amr went and never came back again (thug life ).  Then Muslim armies attacked Palestine region, Romans suffered a great defeat and fleed into Jarusalem which is called Ilia at that time. This was also a trap of Amr, he ordered his soldiers which siages Jarusalem to loosen the siege and allow escaping Roman armies to take refuge in Jarusalem. Now all the Roman armies was under control. All the other cities near Jarusalem seized to prevent any support for Romans in Jarusalem. After a while patriarch Sophronius offered to deliver the city to Arabs. Hz.Omer hit the road to make negotiations with Romans. Romans especially wanted Omer to sign agreements. 



Arabs firstly conquer southern part of Palestine lands and took it from Romans.

After two year, this time they fight each other at the northern part and Arabs conquer it too. 

Then some other cities surrendered without figthing and they want Muslims to recognize some rights for them.

Hz.Omar, one of the caliphs after Prophet Muhammad gives them some rights;

- With the name of Allah. These rights are given for Ilia (Jarusalem) people from Omar the servant of Allah and emirate of Muslims;

- Noone will intend to harm Ilia people, we wont touch their churches, their properties, their people, their clerics, we wont take any of their goods, we wont make any oppression, we wont allow Jews to settle in them. No properties or cross or religious symbols of them will be burned or will be reduced in any other way. They will pay jizyah if they want to stay and live in Ilia and they will be escorted until they reach a safe place if they want to leave Ilia. Jizyah will be paid only in harvest times. This agreement is a promise given by Allah and duty of Muslims to comply, as long as they pay jizyah. Those who came here to fight against us will also benefit the same rights. 


Source: http://ktp.isam.org.tr/pdfdrg/D01392/2001_2/2001_2_GULM.pdf - http://www.dunyabulteni.net/haber/124810/kudus-nasil-fethedildi



to be continued...

Edited December 26, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

What does Allah have to do with today?

I do not base my life on any religion so why would I base it "what Allah said"

Plus by this argument why can't somebody say "Allah said leave Israel alone" and we can on with all of our lives. 

[Altai]

More info added in the OP.

Source: http://www.mirasimiz.org.tr/Content-Kudus-0-836

[Canadianjim]

On 2016-12-24 at 4:57 PM, Ash74 said:

What does Allah have to do with today?

I do not base my life on any religion so why would I base it "what Allah said"

Plus by this argument why can't somebody say "Allah said leave Israel alone" and we can on with all of our lives. 

Well maybe because Israel is conducting an illegal occupation and theft of Palestinian land.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Canadianjim said:

Well maybe because Israel is conducting an illegal occupation and theft of Palestinian land.

I suppose your "Palestinian" buddies should not have listened to that escaped Nazi and start a war with Israel.

Didn't work out any time your friends have attacked Israel. But your friends keep trying...and get rewarded by the UN for doing so.

Sweet deal.

[Canadianjim]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

I suppose your "Palestinian" buddies should not have listened to that escaped Nazi and start a war with Israel.

Didn't work out any time your friends have attacked Israel. But your friends keep trying...and get rewarded by the UN for doing so.

Sweet deal.

Well if you don't know anything about the conflict, I don't suppose there is much point in discussing it with you.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Canadianjim said:

Well if you don't know anything about the conflict, I don't suppose there is much point in discussing it with you.

 

I know more than a SJW spouting Democracy Now! talking points.

[Canadianjim]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

I know more than a SJW spouting Democracy Now! talking points.

How about listening to an Israeli born Jew Miko Peled? He served in the IDF, father was a general in the 67 war , grandfather was one of original settlers. 

Read his book "The General's Son" Then you'll be informed by an Israeli born Jew with more credibility and knowledge  than most people can come up with,.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Canadianjim said:

How about listening to an Israeli born Jew Miko Peled? He served in the IDF, father was a general in the 67 war , grandfather was one of original settlers. 

Read his book "The General's Son" Then you'll be informed by an Israeli born Jew with more credibility and knowledge  than most people can come up with,.

He's on Democracy Now! a lot. Amy has a crush on him or something.

Yeah...Miko likes to embellish reality. His father never lorded over the Palestinians. He did manage a POW camp briefly...Egyptian POWs...but in those days, there were no 'Palestinians'....not invented at Khartoum, yet.

[DogOnPorch]

But, you Palestinian supporters are in good company.

Haj Amin al-Husseini...Arafat's uncle...was the founder of the movement to remove the Jews from the Middle East. He was also one of the Third Reich's most murderous Nazis...sending at least 750,000 Jews, Roma and Serbs to the Death Camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

[Canadianjim]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

He's on Democracy Now! a lot. Amy has a crush on him or something.

Yeah...Miko likes to embellish reality. His father never lorded over the Palestinians. He did manage a POW camp briefly...Egyptian POWs...but in those days, there were no 'Palestinians'....not invented at Khartoum, yet.

Lol... read the book. It's packed with verifiable facts. Of course they are going to attack him. Go watch the occupation of Hebron documentary by Australians. The problem you have is we know israel lies. They lied about being attacked in the 67 war for 20 years until Menachem Begin finally admitted who started the war.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, Canadianjim said:

Lol... read the book. It's packed with verifiable facts. Of course they are going to attack him. Go watch the occupation of Hebron documentary by Australians. The problem you have is we know israel lies. They lied about being attacked in the 67 war for 20 years until Menachem Begin finally admitted who started the war.

"Verifiable facts" from Miko....no thanks. I'll stick to history.

[Canadianjim]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

"Verifiable facts" from Miko....no thanks. I'll stick to history.

Didn't you say there were no Palestinians? What is this then? What is the land called?

 

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917 

Dear Lord Rothschild, 

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. 

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. 

Yours,

Arthur James Balfour

[DogOnPorch]

So...I have to ask...what is the attraction of a movement started by a Nazi aimed at eliminating Jews?

[DogOnPorch]

The were called "Arabs" before 1967. Before 1967, Palestinian referred to Jews.

[Altai]

Just share your sources and discuss about them, instead of pissing contest. 

[Rue]

4 hours ago, Canadianjim said:

How about listening to an Israeli born Jew Miko Peled? He served in the IDF, father was a general in the 67 war , grandfather was one of original settlers. 

Read his book "The General's Son" Then you'll be informed by an Israeli born Jew with more credibility and knowledge  than most people can come up with,.

How about you refrain from supposing if a Jew agrees with your opinions somehow that makes his opinion special.

Once again you engage in an obnoxious exercise that someone always pulls on discussions about Israel called Good Jew Bad Jew.

source:http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_Jews_and_bad_Jews

"Good Jews and bad Jews" is a common argumentative dichotomy, whereby "good Jews" are those who happen to agree with a person's positive stereotypes regarding how those who happen to practice Judaism or are of Jewish ancestry should behave (and, hence, ought to be protected from criticism) and "bad Jews" are those who fulfill negative stereotypes about how those same individuals should not behave. Either straw-man "group" can be a majority or minority, but both usually fulfill the lowest expectations (by non-Jews, usually those in historically-Christian- or Muslim-dominated territories) of how a Jewish person should be perceived.

 

Go on and finish then. Am I  to take it if an Israeli born Jew does not agree with Miko Peled he's what? How about someone who is Jewish and not Israeli born like me who does not agree with Miko Peled? How about a non Jew born in Israel or a non  Jew born outside Israel who does not agree with Miko Peled?  What does it make them?

How is this person being a Jew or Israeli born or both relevant? Do you know? Well?

One other thing, as a Jew I find Miko Peled to be an anti semitic self hater. You quote him because he suits your anti Israel opinions. What you don't discuss is his anti semitic slurs against Jews. What you don't get is when a Jew engages in slurs against ALL Jews it doesn't make him credible, it makes him self loathing.

Self loathers come in every minority group. They feel if they hate themselves and engage in slurs against themselves they will magically erase their visible minority status and become acceptable.

There are literally thousands of Jews you could have chosen to reference and for that matter thousands of non Jews you could have chosen to reference to state their opinions that the settlements are illegal. You chose this man because he isn't just anti settlement, he wants the state of Israel extinguished and he smeers all Jews and you think what because he's Jewish this makes his opinions o.k.K? Yah I get it if a gay man openly says nasty bigoted things about gays its o.k. because he's gay? Its o.k. for a black man to call a black man a n.....er because he's black?

Horsecrap. The man you quite is a hateful bigot. He has zero credibility. He fuels anti Semitism and you make his hateful anti semitic views what credible because he was born Israeli?

http://forward.com/scribe/351949/miko-peled-and-progressive-jewish-anti-semitism/l another black man a ni...er because he's black? Bull crap.

http://www.chicagonow.com/politics-now/2016/09/antisemitism-is-alive-and-well/

You want to discuss the settlement issue do so. Don't patronize me or any Jew or anyone for that matter and suggest when discussing settlement issues on the West Bank its in any way credible to attack and smeer all Jews.

Peled lost any credibility he had in discussions on settlements on the West Bank because he engages in attacks against all Jews worldwide with insulting comments.

It makes him yet another rhateful bigot using the turmoils of the Middle East as a pretense to couch and disguise and give excuse to his hateful sputum that won't bring about peace but simply fuel anti semites and terrorists,

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/The-insider-origins-of-anti-Israelism-331529

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Canadianjim]

6 minutes ago, Rue said:

How about you refrain from supposing if a Jew agrees with your opinions somehow that makes his opinion special.

"How about you refrain from supposing if a Jew agrees with your opinions somehow that makes his opinion special."

 

It's not about opinion. Its about verifiable government documents and facts which if you read the book you would know what I am talking about.

Opinions are one thing. Facts are entirely different. Verified  by  many of the "New Historians" All Israelis  using government records and testimony from those that were there,

Edited December 26, 2016 by Canadianjim

[Rue]

No CanadiamJim the anti semitic slurs Miko Peled has engaged in had nothing to do about government documents and if you read these anti semitic comments you would Know that-the issue for him is no longer about settlements-he's turned it into an attack against Israel having the right to exist as a Jewish state, and all Jews because we are Jews. Here are just three of his ignorant twitter statements that attack all Jews. The first is a classic anti semitic slur that attacks all Jews and shows he does not distinguish Israeli government policy he objects to and Jews as a people. He uses  his objections against the first as the opportunity to insult and attack all Jews. In the second tweet he was in fact encouraging Hamas to keep sending rockets into Israel to kill Israelis. In the third tweet like the first he engages in the apartheid slur and in the third the Nazi inversion technique which accuses all Israelis of being Nazi. The airport by the way has security measures that anyone having travelled to and from that airport knows has nothing to do with skin colour in the precautions and measures it takes which are now used all over the world.

 

 

 

The anti Semitism of Miko Peled ddettracts from the discussion as to settlements.

I have inferred from your last comment that since you have no way to deny his anti semitic remarks you have tried to ignore them and change the subject.  The subject was you choosing to quote him as an authority on the settlement issue when I contend his anti semitic attacks on Jews disqualify him from that. Here you can ignore this about him as well:

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/miko-peleds-big-anti-semitism-problem/

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/theres-something-very-ugly-in-this-rage-against-israel/15400#.WGGG2_krLZY

Next  you made reference to some unnamed "New Historians" and claim they use government documents to back up their statements. That has nothing to do with Peled's decision to engage in anti semitic attacks when discussing settlements and/or Israel's right to exist. It might be helpful if you intend to quote someone, you provide their name and provide the site and contents of what they said.

I have read some of your comments on another thread just as I have Altai's to know both of you do not think Israel should exist as a Jewish state.

It is not my intent to defend the right of we Jews to a state because quite frankly I don't care what you two think. For the sake though of showing there is an opinion other than Altai's or Miko Peled's or yours I produce this  response:

http://jcpa.org/article/whitewashing-palestine-eliminate-israel-case-one-state-advocates/rg/article/whitewashing-palestine-eliminate-israel-case-one-state-advocates/

 

Next I do notice in another thread on settlements you  advanced not once but three times the falsehood that the PA/Hamas recognize the state of Israel's existence and even went so far as to state Netanyahu admitted this. Not only has Netanyahu never stated  this because its false but I must point out is not conducive to discussing the conflict if you persist in making such falsehoods.

Here is the point, you can present bias retakes on history omitting certain events and providing  bias interpretations of others to suit your politically partisan views but it won't change what is public fact:

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=694995

http://www.thetower.org/4230-in-reelection-address-abbas-refuses-to-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state/

Also if you claim there are government documents that support your views provide them.

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Rue

[Altai]

- 66-69 : The Great Revolt : Some Roman citizens perform provocative acts in front of Synagogues and makes somethings against Torah verses. At the same time, the governor of Roman Judea wants some overdue debts from Jewish people. Then Jews decide not to pay taxes anymore. Romans get angry and attack Jews. Jews repel the attack but Romans gets more angry and gather an army consist of about 30.000 soldiers, six months after the first attack. Jews repel this attack too and they defeat Roman army badly and kill many of them. Its called Beth Horon massacre (whuattt). So why its called a "massacre" while the agressive side is Romans ? Anyway. Then emperor Neron gets moreeeee and moreeeeeee angry (LoL) tasks another commander of him to prepare another army. Jews also guess that Romans will keep attacking and they will finally lose against Romans in a long term war. Jews send their commanders to a place called Galilee to meet Roman army before they reach Palestinian lands, to have a chance for a peace treaty () But this tactic does not work and Romans approach to Jarusalem step by step and massacring all Jewish people on the way Jarusalem. Jewish commander Josephus who was tasked to make a peace agreement with Romans take refugee in a place called Jatopata and Romans encircle it too. Then Josephus says "Ermmm I think they are going to seize here about in 47 days." Then wtff Romans seizes Jatopata exactly after 47 days as Josephus was claimed. They reject to surrender and decides to murder themselves, Josephus says "Guys we will murder each other and everyone will murder a third person near" (WTF ) Then everyone murders each other and finally only two persons survives, guess who is one of them ? Da daaaa Josephus  I can guarantee he was a Roman spy. Romans dont kill Josephus but arrest him. 


Romans keeps murdering people for two years and all Jews huddle together in Jarusalem. Jewish rebels murder their own leaders Hanan and take control of Jarusalem. Romans decide to release Josephus to allow him to go Jarusalem and convince rebels to be good boys but rebels reject him and want to fight. Romans attack Jarusalem over and over again but cannot seize the city and they decide to cover the city with high walls (LoL). Jews starve to death with this wall but they reject to surrender for three months. (God gave them bread ) Jews dig tunnels to attack Romans but their tunnels collapse (LooooL) and Romans seize the city. They murders thousands of people including Yahia the leader of rebels. Josephus moves to Rome/Italy and writes all of these things above. Romans also stole all the money and valuable things and treasures of Jewish people and use them to build Vespasian Collesium.


To be continued ...

Source: http://www.tarihtennotlar.com/medeniyetler-tarihi/roma-tarihi/roma-tarihinin-en-buyuk-isyani/


This woman speak soo scary like my father's car navigation but still may be helpful.
 

For more details : http://bit.ly/2ihbeRP

Edited December 28, 2016 by Altai

[Altai]

- BC 1200 : Palestine lands are called as "Canaan". There is a people called Canaanites living in the region.

- Jews first started to live in the region which called "West Bank" today.

- Palestinian people were living at the coastal sides of Canaan.

- BC 1000 : Jews take under control Palestinians and other Canaan people in 200 years and establish first Jewish state called "Kingdom of Israel".


Source: http://www.acikders.org.tr/file.php/124/LectureNotes/israil_arap_savasi.pdf


To be continued ...
 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Altai

[Altai]

More informations added to the OP.

Source: http://www.vahdet.info.tr/filistin/kitap1/kudus006.html

[Altai]

I love cartoon soo much  and here a cartoon related with the issue.