.

[cybercoma]

.

Edited January 30, 2017 by cybercoma

[bush_cheney2004]

More partisan nonsense that ignores the very long and well documented history of politics and candidates in the United States.

It's not like the Rob Ford fiasco never happened in "reasonable" Canada.

[cybercoma]

I'm going to take a "wild" stab that you didn't read a damn thing in the 5 minutes you've been on the forum until you made this reply.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

I'm going to take a "wild" stab that you didn't read a damn thing in the 5 minutes you've been on the forum until you made this reply.

 

Please try to stay on topic.   The OP doesn't even pretend to be an objective view of voters and the reasons for their choices in the United States.  

 

[cybercoma]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

Please try to stay on topic.   The OP doesn't even pretend to be an objective view of voters and the reasons for their choices in the United States. 

You replied to the hockey thread then five minutes later made a response to this thread, trolling about Rob Ford. You barely read anything I posted and I bet you didn't even open the links.

When you're ready to respond with any kind of reference whatsoever to the content of the articles I presented, let me know. Until then, you're just trying to derail this thread with your usual trolling schtick.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

You replied to the hockey thread then five minutes later made a response to this thread, trolling about Rob Ford. You barely read anything I posted and I bet you didn't even open the links.

When you're ready to respond with any kind of reference whatsoever to the content of the articles I presented, let me know. Until then, you're just trying to derail this thread with your usual trolling schtick.

 

So for starters, you were wrong about the earlier attack, and wrong again concerning the "links".    The thread is self derailing because of the partisan references and myopic attack on one American candidate.

Democracy Now! ......Seriously ????    

[cybercoma]

Keep replying. Anyone who reads the articles is going to have a good laugh at your ridiculous off-topic responses that demonstrate you didn't read a damn thing.

[bush_cheney2004]

My responses are on topic....I am not the stranger on this matter.

American candidates and political success, particularly when it comes to populism, is an old story and unremarkable.

Foreigners often don't understand the history and purpose.

Edited October 14, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[dialamah]

@CC, I read the Cracked article yesterday and it made me weepy, honestly.  Was thinking about posting it here, but you beat me to it - thank you.   I can't access the other site till I get home but I'm guessing it's along the same lines as the Cracked article.   It makes me sad that so many people feel unheard and marginalized.

BC2004, you are so wrong about the topic, it's pathetic.  

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

BC2004, you are so wrong about the topic, it's pathetic.  

 

Thank you, because now I am certain my response was spot on.   Right or wrong, the Strangers will vote for what they believe in, and there is nothing that smug critics inside or outside of America can do about it.   This is a good thing.

[cybercoma]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I can't access the other site till I get home but I'm guessing it's along the same lines as the Cracked article.

It's a similar idea but it's much better. The Cracked article is comedic but brings up an important point. The other articles are about Hochschild's research so it's much more in depth and academic. It is a similar point to the Cracked article, in regards to being left behind, but it's presented in a much better, more meaningful way.

[bush_cheney2004]

Trump critics actually lamented his observation that African Americans have been voting against their own interests for decades by supporting the Democrats.

Liberals can't have it both ways.

[?Impact]

I am not a racist, I'm just falling down the economic trapdoor that used to only affect black people and people one class below them and its all the fault of those city guys. Trump is my man, he is a true rural folk.

Yes, the American dream is dying. To not realize that Trump is one of the guys that killed it is insane. 

[cybercoma]

Why would you? He's fighting back against the things that people believe caused it. He's fighting to Make America Great Again by putting the genie back in the bottle. Even if you know in the back of your mind that there is no going back, are you not going to vote for the person who's at least going to fight to try?

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I am not a racist, I'm just falling down the economic trapdoor that used to only affect black people and people one class below them and its all the fault of those city guys. Trump is my man, he is a true rural folk.

Yes, the American dream is dying. To not realize that Trump is one of the guys that killed it is insane. 

 

The premise should not be about Trump, but obviously partisan interests want to spin this old story his way.

Freedom breeds inequality. Unless you have freedom to be unequal, there is no such thing as freedom. - William F. Buckley, Jr.

[cybercoma]

Hillary is talking about helping women, children, those with disabilities, seniors, african americans, latinos, etc. Those are the ones being waved to the front of the line, while there are some extremely poor, white, working class Americans that are being passed over and dismissed as racist hillbillies. Hillary is not talking to them or about their problems. She's talking about literally supporting the things that those people believe are putting them behind, even though it's absolutely not true. But this is what Hothschild means about Deep Stories. It doesn't have to be true. It's something felt, deeply, regardless of facts and reason. Add to this situation post-truth politics and this is what we have. It doesn't matter that there's no clearly articulated policies or intelligent plans. It matters that someone is going to fight for them and on their side against the forces that they believe are allying against them.

[?Impact]

15 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

are you not going to vote for the person who's at least going to fight to try?

If the person who makes that claim had any credibility at all I might. When the used car dealer says this is a good buy, run like hell.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The premise should not be about Trump, but obviously partisan interests want to spin this old story his way.

Freedom breeds inequality. Unless you have freedom to be unequal, there is no such thing as freedom. - William F. Buckley, Jr.

You are in denial. I alluded to this in a status update the other day. Certain segments of the American media have, for the last 30 years, especially since Australian magnate Rupert Murdoch set up the FOX network. Since then it and its right wing allies have been slickly and skillfully pushing the message that the government is BAD, that everything it does stifles jobs, that corporations are GOOD, and everything they do is good, and that government needs to get out of the way of business, and cut its regulations to the bone. Only then will life be paradise. And anyone and everyone who challenges business, be it environmentalists or people who want business to pay more taxes, or provide safer workplaces or safer products, or not pollute so much, well those are all job destroyers.

This message has been particularly influential in rural areas, and in areas where there was already a measure of resentment to feed on due to economic dislocation caused by a variety of circumstances. And it has been aided by venal, self-serving politicians who are bought and paid for by corporate America, and who have a guarantee of rich rewards when they leave office if they work, not for the people, but for their campaign donors. They've convinced a large body of people that only they are 'real Americans', rural folk, blue collar workers. And the rest - they're evil. They're filthy liberals who despise real Americans and have no moral values. There can be no compromise with them and their evil, corrupt representatives - the Democrats.

As I said earlier, If you're a Nazi, a KKK'er, an alt-right conspiracy kook, a white supremacist or militia member, and someone who despises government and liberals, FOX news is your go-to source for information. Rupert Murdoch has done more to damage America and set its people against one another than anyone in history.

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

You are in denial.

 

No, I actually live and vote in the United States, unlike so many experts here.   FOX News is just a very popular alt-media for those who are weary of liberal folks and their media telling them what they should believe in / vote for.   Fox News is the #1 cable news network in the U.S., and it is also watched in Canada.

American viewers have far more domestic media choices than those in Canada and many other nations.

Edited October 14, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

31 minutes ago, Argus said:

As I said earlier, If you're a Nazi, a KKK'er, an alt-right conspiracy kook, a white supremacist or militia member, and someone who despises government and liberals, FOX news is your go-to source for information. Rupert Murdoch has done more to damage America and set its people against one another than anyone in history.

I don't know if you still have me on ignore but you really need to read the articles. These aren't the extreme radicals, like the Neo-Nazis or Klansmen, who are supporting the Tea Party and Trump. These are hard working, blue-collar Americans who are seeing their natural environments ravaged and their jobs dry up. You said as much in the rest of your post. When these hard-working Americans are treated with stereotypes, such as likening them to racist and uneducated hillbillies, they feel isolated and rejected from the dominant culture of society. They're not seen as minorities because they're appear to be from the dominant group in society, but they're not. They're from an economic underclass that's being ravaged. Yet their concerns aren't being heard. They believe the government is giving people a free pass to cut in line because they don't understand the barriers that others face when they're faced with their own barriers that are ignored. FOX News is just a mouthpiece to express their frustration. FOX News is actually a reflection of their deeply felt beliefs. The Tea Party and Donald Trump are just the symptoms of a deep resentment towards being ignored and overlooked.

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, cybercoma said:

 FOX News is actually a reflection of their deeply felt beliefs. The Tea Party and Donald Trump are just the symptoms of a deep resentment towards being ignored and overlooked.

Not only ignored and overlooked but the targets of active contempt by the "urban elite". These people's life experience of working hard and not getting ahead is diametrically opposed to everything they constantly hear in the liberal media about "white privilege" and "patriarchy". A blue collar worker will rightly ask where the heck they're supposed privilege is and distrust anyone who claims such privilege exists. While the reaction to vote for Trump is obviously counter-productive, the cultural dislocation that makes these people want to do something (anything) to rebel against the liberal elite is a very real and understandable thing. Part of the solution will be for people like yourself and those who agree with you to stop framing discussions in terms of "institutional racism" and "white privilege", which inherently enrages and alienates this demographic, and instead to frame things in much more real economic terms. 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Bonam

[Argus]

14 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Not only ignored and overlooked but the targets of active contempt by the "urban elite". These people's life experience of working hard and not getting ahead is diametrically opposed to everything they constantly hear in the liberal media about "white privilege" and "patriarchy". A blue collar worker will rightly ask where the heck they're supposed privilege is and distrust anyone who claims such privilege exists. While the reaction to vote for Trump is obviously counter-productive, the cultural dislocation that makes these people want to do something (anything) to rebel against the liberal elite is a very real and understandable thing.

The problem is it's not the liberal elite who are behind their problems. It's the corporate elite. Ordinary people have been taken in by the propaganda to believe that the instruments which are there to help them are their enemies, and the institutions that are their enemies are their friends. Why has the US put so little effort into helping ease the trauma of economic dislocation for those who used to work those blue collar factory jobs? Because the Republicans don't care about ordinary people and are only out to cut taxes for the rich and corporations at the expense of services to the middle class and poor. And why has the US not been able to get a handle on big money in elections? Because the Republicans have fought tooth and nail against restrictions on big money - because they disproportionately benefit. That big money is why Republicans have consistently tried to cut pensions, cut health care, cut student loans and grants, cut employment insurance, cut education, cut food aid and aid to help heat the homes of poor people, cut all social services while at the same time advocating continuing cuts to taxes for the wealthy. How do you think you help these people without programs that cost money the Republican congress would never approve?

 

Oh I don't deny there's a measure of contempt by the urban elites towards the rural and blue collar types. But that's not really much of a problem since the two groups rarely interact. I agree it's wrong, and it's harmful. But the real problem is the way big money twists the interests of politicians towards the moneyed elites. If you look at Republican politicians who are voted in by these people you find they're doing nothing to their benefit, including the governors of rural states.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

 How do you think you help these people without programs that cost money the Republican congress would never approve?

 

Government does not exist to propagate the social welfare state.  

[cybercoma]

14 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Not only ignored and overlooked but the targets of active contempt by the "urban elite". These people's life experience of working hard and not getting ahead is diametrically opposed to everything they constantly hear in the liberal media about "white privilege" and "patriarchy". A blue collar worker will rightly ask where the heck they're supposed privilege is and distrust anyone who claims such privilege exists. While the reaction to vote for Trump is obviously counter-productive, the cultural dislocation that makes these people want to do something (anything) to rebel against the liberal elite is a very real and understandable thing. Part of the solution will be for people like yourself and those who agree with you to stop framing discussions in terms of "institutional racism" and "white privilege", which inherently enrages and alienates this demographic, and instead to frame things in much more real economic terms. 

I started to type up a reply but Argus's first sentence summed it up precisely. It's not the liberal or urban elite who are the source of their problems, it is indeed the corporate elite.

As for white privilege and institutional racism, these are realities but there are some what people who are certainly not reaping the benefits of that privilege. People of colour tend to have it that much harder because the colour of their skin is an additional barrier on top of their economic suffering in most cases. This is how problems get compounded and is why intersectionality is important to understand. Being poor is definitely a barrier to success, being poor and black is multiplicative.

But I don't want to get too far off the topic of trying to understand the specific issues faced by people in the heart of Trump territory by discussing whether white privilege and institutional racism exist. They're irrelevant to the point at hand, which is that they're being taken advantage of by corporate elite. Yet, even if they blame the corporations, they blame the "liberal elite" for ignoring them, all while voting to dismantle the government because they feel it doesn't help them. Their anger should be directed at the corporate elite instead, imo.

[Bonam]

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

 

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

That big money is why Republicans have consistently tried to cut pensions, cut health care, cut student loans and grants, cut employment insurance, cut education, cut food aid and aid to help heat the homes of poor people, cut all social services while at the same time advocating continuing cuts to taxes for the wealthy. How do you think you help these people without programs that cost money the Republican congress would never approve?

Ok quoting is totally broken with the new forum upgrade, sigh. Took like 5 mins of work to get the quote to work. 

Anyway, I think the point is that the demographic we're talking about doesn't want all this government aid you mention. They don't want food aid and social services and employment insurance. These are the things they feel their tax dollars (when they have jobs to pay taxes with) are being wasted on for the favorite pet victim classes of the liberal elite. They take pride in self sufficiency and just want there to be jobs. A message that promises them more welfare programs and social services will completely not resonate, ever, it's completely the wrong message. A message that promises them good solid manly jobs again (which is Trump's message even if he has no plan for making it happen), on the other hand, is exactly what they want to hear.