Canadian Identity

[Cartman]

A very simple question. I believe that Canadian values of compassion and progressiveness are indicated by the success of our social and political institutions such as health care, employment insurance etc. Do you agree?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Cartman,

I think our social and gov't programs suck. However, the 'The Canadian Identity' is based on our valuing these institutions, flawed though they may be, and that we put the compassionate care of others high on the list, as opposed to other places where the right to individual greed is the 'summum bonum' of life.

[Slavik44]

A very simple question. I believe that Canadian values of compassion and progressiveness are indicated by the success of our social and political institutions such as health care, employment insurance etc. Do you agree?

so then Canadian identity is full of holes and rotting. a bit like moldy swiss cheese?

[brianw]

I believe that Canadian values of compassion and progressiveness are indicated by the success of our social and political institutions

Like our Heritage Minister asking businesses to provide invoices for flags that never existed so she could say that she handed out one million of them (without actually doing it of course)?

[Cartman]

If Canadian values are not evident in our institutions, then where do they exist? Americans would certainly be upset if US flags or the Statue of Liberty were eradicated.

What indicates "anti-Canadianism" to you? Certainly, you do not accept everything as equally valuable for Canada do you?! Does harmonization with the US indicate anti-Canadian sentiment especially if our institutions are more efficient?

[Bakunin]

Our values ?

Socially progressive in general

econnomically diversified depending on each provinces

culturally, 2 different culture, the canadian one and the quebec one, and both linked with the american one. and both enrich by multiple culture.

politically fucked up...

[August1991]

politically fucked up...

Situation normal.

I believe that Canadian values of compassion and progressiveness are indicated by the success of our social and political institutions such as health care, employment insurance etc.

That makes it sound as if Canada began with the Canada Health Act in 1965.

Is Canada only a health system?

As to employment insurance, it has become a weird transfer system from poor people to poor people. People pay into it but will never receive payments and the total contribution tops out at about $800. It's an extremely regressive tax.

The Quiet Revolution in Quebec in the 1960s confronted English Canada with a major dilemma. Canada has been grappling with the dilemma over the past 40 years or so.

Lester Pearson chose one option immediately (special status) but Pierre Trudeau quickly nixed that. Trudeau's solution has been top-down - make people fit into a model that he theorized. Canada is now the world centre for political correctness.

This story is far from finished. (The US Civil War was about 30 or 40 years in the making.)

What is Canada to me? Most Canadians are polite, boring, self-effacing, respectful and honest. We are not self-important. We are civilized.

[JWayne625]

I think that the only thing Canada has going for us right now is our health coverage, and that is quickly eroding. Canadian's have really nothing to be patriotic about, because our country does not stand for anything. We pretend to be peacemakers, but fail to properly equip our military to protect themselves in war zones. Peacekeepers must be prepared to use force when necessary, but in order to do that they have to have proper equipment, and bargain basement used subs is not getting the job done, the same can be said for our helicopter's that have fallen from the skies and taken Canadian lives. Neither of these things would have happened if we spent money on providing safe equipment instead of worrying about what language a person speaks or doesn't speak.

Trudeau's declaration that Canada is a bilingual country has done more to segregate our population based on language that it has brought us together. We waste untold billions on a failed attempt to socially engineer our population into believing that legislating bilingualism will magically entice people to run right out and learn a language (French) that in the big scheme of thing's is a dying language, and artificially inflating a need for it does not make it so. People have simply not bought into this pipe dream and are not about to. I just wonder how long before Ottawa finally admits that their attempt to turn Canada into a French nation has failed miserably. Think how much money will be saved each year when they finally do admit to this failure. Until that happens we will continue to throw good money after bad.

[Big Blue Machine]

It's hiding in the closet right behind you. It's going to get you, RUN AWAY RUN AWAY!

[Hugo]

This thread is a nonsense. I would be flabbergasted if you could get the nation of Canada (all 30m of them) to agree on anything, let alone the entire set of values that make up an identity!

What do you take as the Canadian identity? The opinion of the majority? Does this mean that the minority is un-Canadian? We have all sorts of different viewpoints on this forum, so who is the real Canadian, and who is the imposter with the Canadian birth certificate and passport? Is it Maplesyrup or Stoker? Caesar or Argus? They hold radically different viewpoints on virtually everything, so one of them must be out-of-step with Canadian "identity."

The truth is that the idea of a nation-state is a fiction. The only aggregates one could truly be said to be a part of are those one joins voluntarily, and even then, you have to be aware of compromises in the mind of the individual. A lot of Liberal voters in the last election probably didn't agree with the Liberal platform, but compromised because they were afraid of the Conservatives.

I believe most of the evil in this world (the murders and genocides, the rapes, thefts, massacres, pillaging and so forth) can be put down to a tendency to see people as aggregates rather than individuals. You would think we could learn from this, but evidently some of us can't.

[Guest eureka]

Their ability to express radically different ideas is part of the Canadian identity. It is possibly in many other countries also but more here than in most. It is also part of our total package of freedoms and of our national inheritance.

It most certainly is part of our identity and the idea, itself, is well worth exploring. Understanding better where we came from and who we are does wonders for the psyche. The discussion will never get it right but, it could lead to a greater awareness of what Canada is and why it is.

Who knows, the American wannabees may even begin to appreciate their good fortune in being Canadian.

[Cartman]

The truth is that the idea of a nation-state is a fiction.

So, there is no such thing as patriotism towards the US or Canada? How can one be patriotic to something that supposedly does not exist? Just because there exists diversity, this does not mean that there is no unity.

[Cartman]

The truth is that the idea of a nation-state is a fiction. The only aggregates one could truly be said to be a part of are those one joins voluntarily

And so ends the useless academic pursuit of the social sciences and economics. Social, cultural and political groups do not exist, there are only individuals. We return you to your regularly scheduled program of individualism in the 1790's.

[Hugo]

So, there is no such thing as patriotism towards the US or Canada? How can one be patriotic to something that supposedly does not exist?

How can one worship a god-king who is not a god? How can one faithfully believe in and give offerings to the Lightning Spirit? How can one set out to find a Northern Passage to the orient?

You're seriously telling me that believing in something makes it real, or can turn lies into truth? How many fingers do you see, Winston?

And so ends the useless academic pursuit of the social sciences and economics. Social, cultural and political groups do not exist

Read my post again - carefully, this time.

[August1991]

And so ends the useless academic pursuit of the social sciences and economics. Social, cultural and political groups do not exist, there are only individuals. We return you to your regularly scheduled program of individualism in the 1790's.

Chuckle, chuckle.

Of course, individual effort can achieve more through collective means. But anonymous co-operation works best through markets with prices. Such markets do not always work. But other mechanisms are available. Family, corporations, government. Notice the mix of voluntary and involuntary association.

Hugo, would you admit that Finns might have a reason to form a club since they speak the same language and this avoids translation problems?

Or, what about Jews and the diamond trade. Why and how do people form clubs, Hugo? I gave the example of a Condominum management committee.

To me, Libertarians and Anarchists are like new Converts. They have discovered the Price Mechanism, and now are more Catholic than the Pope. Their belief is so simple. In fact, it's not.

-----

Getting back to Cartman's ingenious post, how do we understand the cumulative behaviour of many individuals?

I believe most of the evil in this world (the murders and genocides, the rapes, thefts, massacres, pillaging and so forth) can be put down to a tendency to see people as aggregates rather than individuals.

The evil occurs in ignoring your postulate, Hugo.

Let's think.

[Cartman]

I have read your post and understand what you are saying, but I am saying that you are wrong.

I do not believe in God, but I think it would be foolish to argue that this belief has had no effects on people. Recall the Thomas theorem, "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". Canadian identity is being formed and will effect people. It is expressed in our institutions and by our laws. We may be multicultural, but we do not accept polygamy or female genital mutilation. These things are against our values. We do not live in a nation of "anything goes" because people desire order.

You claim that evil is the result of ficticious identity and social grouping? I agree to a certain extent, but maintain that individuals are more than capable of hating other individuals. Many of the things you cite with perhaps the exception of genocide, are often expressions of individual acts, not group acts.

We have all sorts of different viewpoints on this forum, so who is the real Canadian, and who is the imposter with the Canadian birth certificate and passport? Is it Maplesyrup or Stoker? Caesar or Argus? They hold radically different viewpoints on virtually everything, so one of them must be out-of-step with Canadian "identity."

OMG...what if the real Canadian was you Hugo!!

I bet if you looked carefully, these people may have very different political perspectives, but they agree on some basics. The fact that they are willing to share and debate ideas about making Canada a better place to live demonstrates a common interest.

Take a look at the crowds cheering for Team Canada early in the New year and then tell me Canadian identity is mere myth.

[Hugo]

But anonymous co-operation works best through markets with prices. Such markets do not always work. But other mechanisms are available. Family, corporations, government. Notice the mix of voluntary and involuntary association.

Did you ever get around to reading that link I sent you? Wherever voluntary human interaction occurs, that's a market. Perhaps the currency isn't money but that doesn't change anything. Nobel laureate Gary Becker did a lot of work on subjects like the marriage market, demonstrating that these fields of human interaction could be expressed in purely economic terms.

Hugo, would you admit that Finns might have a reason to form a club since they speak the same language and this avoids translation problems?

Sure! Do you admit that we shouldn't assume Finns have formed a club just because they speak the same language, and might not necessarily be any more united than the English-speaking or Arabic-speaking nations?

To me, Libertarians and Anarchists are like new Converts. They have discovered the Price Mechanism, and now are more Catholic than the Pope. Their belief is so simple. In fact, it's not.

Waffle. You couldn't defend your viewpoints anyway, so now you bluster. It's a bad habit. You'd be a very good debater if you could refrain from this type of thing.

I have read your post and understand what you are saying, but I am saying that you are wrong.

No, you did not read, or you did not understand. You alleged that I claimed "Social, cultural and political groups do not exist, there are only individuals." This is in direct contradiction of paragraph 3 of my post.

We may be multicultural, but we do not accept polygamy or female genital mutilation.

Who is "we"?

You claim that evil is the result of ficticious identity and social grouping? I agree to a certain extent, but maintain that individuals are more than capable of hating other individuals.

Why do they hate them? More often than not, because they see them as a member of a group - yid, nigger, spic, chink, gook, etc. - rather than as an actual person.

Take a look at the crowds cheering for Team Canada early in the New year and then tell me Canadian identity is mere myth.

Take a look at the crowds not cheering for Team Canada! You refute yourself.

[maplesyrup]

Was Pierre Burton a Canadian patriot?

"A country has to have a mythology"

I think so!

[Newfie Canadian]

I would suggest that to define a specific identity for a nation as diverse in culture as Canada is difficult.

I think the only way to describe the Canadian identity is to say just that: it's Canadian.

You're seriously telling me that believing in something makes it real

Sometimes believing in something is the only way to make it real.