What direction the Conservatives Should Take

[cannuck]

Who said that? Economics should be a mandatory high school class. No need for your false choice strawman masters degrees.

and, just who is going to write that curriculum? The same "professionals" who now know how to precisely measure something they do not at all understand? These are the morons (note: most seats in economic academia seem to be sponsored by banks) who think government can spend its way to prosperity. The sole function of this discipline is to maintain Casino Capitalism.

About the only professional more incompetent and just plain stupid would be a civil engineer who would put steel rebar in concrete.

[Newfoundlander]

Maybe economist Stephen Harper can write the curriculum for a high school economics course?

[Derek 2.0]

Well at least it looks like we got religion out of the mix. Although Derek doesn't agree. What he doesn't realize is that if they were to eliminate those ties, many so-called Liberals might vote for them once in a while, but with them, it will never happen; they will be limited to the "base" .... which will get smaller and smaller with each passing generation.

Interesting, perhaps you need to read my post again......none the less, as I said, it comes down to vote share, there are currently more social conservatives than "so-called Liberals" that are put off by religion and refuse to vote for the Tories because of their views.

Your reasoning makes no sense.

and Derek:

you opinion on what is "popular", ....such as "law and order policies".... is misguided. Nothing is "popular" if it doesn't make sense. And if Conservatives really believe that, then they are deluded and no wonder they lost.

Again, its not the slightest bit misguided, but clearly logical........if being "soft on crime" made sense, and would translate to votes, parties would campaign as such..........yet being seen as "soft on crime" by moderate swing voters, that decide elections, is as popular as genital warts.

[TimG]

Denial of science is hardly a "media invention". A Billion in cuts and firing 15% of scientist may or may not be an exaggeration, but there is some truth in there somewhere.

The Conservatives needed to balance the budget and every department faced cuts. The cuts to government funded scientists only got press because the media/opposition wanted to fabricate this 'anti-science' meme.

It is kind of ironic because if you listen anyone who actually accuses the Conservatives of being anti-science you will discover pretty quickly that don't care about science unless it suits their personal agenda and will discard it as soon as it is inconvenient (e.g. nuclear power or GMOs).

IOW: the anti-science claim is partisan nonsense.

Edited June 5, 2016 by TimG

[cannuck]

Maybe economist Stephen Harper can write the curriculum for a high school economics course?

Because of the asses he kissed internationally, we can assume he was part of the problem, not the solution.

[Icebound]

Interesting, perhaps you need to read my post again......none the less, as I said, it comes down to vote share, there are currently more social conservatives than "so-called Liberals" that are put off by religion and refuse to vote for the Tories because of their views.

Your reasoning makes no sense.

Again, its not the slightest bit misguided, but clearly logical........if being "soft on crime" made sense, and would translate to votes, parties would campaign as such..........yet being seen as "soft on crime" by moderate swing voters, that decide elections, is as popular as genital warts.

Pardon me for misunderstanding.

I was ... perhaps naively .... assuming that the OP was searching for good governance.

IF .... as you suggest .... it is simply seeking votes-from-the-uninformed, then the solution is much simpler:

Just adopt the tactics of Donald Trump.

Spout lies, make outlandish claims, attack everybody vigorously... the more outrageous the better.

It will get you a few hundred million dollars worth of free media coverage, and voila!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-2-billion-free-media_us_56e83410e4b065e2e3d75935

[TimG]

Spout lies, make outlandish claims, attack everybody vigorously... the more outrageous the better.

Which, incidentally, is not much different from the strategy that Bernie Sander's uses.

[Icebound]

The Conservatives needed to balance the budget and every department faced cuts. The cuts to government funded scientists only got press because the media/opposition wanted to fabricate this 'anti-science' meme.

It is kind of ironic because if you listen anyone who actually accuses the Conservatives of being anti-science you will discover pretty quickly that don't care about science unless it suits their personal agenda and will discard it as soon as it is inconvenient (e.g. nuclear power or GMOs).

IOW: the anti-science claim is partisan nonsense.

Yes, of course, I almost believe you....

Except that funding cuts have occurred in Canadian government departments forever. Scientists are used to them. They know that they will always be expected to "do more with less", been there, done that,

But they recognized Harper's approach as something different. Here is a small list:

http://scienceblogs.com/confessions/2013/05/20/the-canadian-war-on-science-a-long-unexaggerated-devastating-chronological-indictment/

...

[Icebound]

Which, incidentally, is not much different from the strategy that Bernie Sander's uses.

No argument here.....

[Argus]

...if the Tories fail to select a well spoken and personable leader, regardless of the merits of their policies, we had might as well start another Tory leader thread for the 2023 election early.......simple as that.

I've said it before a number of times. If you analyse the winners and losers of the last half dozen federal races here or in the US, you find that the personable, folksy guy wins out. Harper was the exception, but not by much given his opponents were stiff and poor speakers. Trudeau senior won out over Stanfield, who was arguably a much better choice, but not as smooth and personable. Clark only won, briefly, when people got sick of Trudeau, and then they went right back to Trudeau less than a year later. Mulroney was a smoothy, and got huge majorities. Chretien was folksy, against a hapless Kim Campbell. Then the PCs fell apart and provided a divided opposition for him.

The Tories need a figurehead. Someone smooth, personable and likable - and hopefully with some degree of skill and intelligence. All the idea, all the vision, all that comes second best, in a TV sound bite age, to having a personable leader. UNLESS, of course, everyone has come to despise Trudeau by then.

[TimG]

But they recognized Harper's approach as something different. Here is a small list:

Nothing in that list establishes your 'anti-science' meme (many items are partisan opinions). What it does show is Harper did not exempt scientists from the general prohibition applied to all government employees on communicating with the media (a prohibition with all scientists working in the private sector have to live with too).

[Argus]

Peculiar....

Your OP asks a question: "Which Direction...?"

But the tone of THIS post says: "Don't want to change anything"

Nope. I simply disagree with YOUR assessment of what needs changing. Law and order always plays to both conservative and centrist voters, for example. And there's no point playing to the Left because they're a lost cause for conservatives.

; they will be limited to the "base" .... which will get smaller and smaller with each passing generation.

No, not likely, especially if we continue to bring in hundreds of thousands of very socially conservative and religious immigrants every year. In fact, you might find the electorate growing more socially conservative and demanding reversals of existing liberal policies.

Denial of science is hardly a "media invention". A Billion in cuts and firing 15% of scientist may or may not be an exaggeration, but there is some truth in there somewhere.

The truth being that when the government is trying to save money people get downsized out of a job, and that government of any political stripe doesn't like it's employees telling the world that they think the government's policies are wrong. If you think the Trudeau Liberals will put up with that because they're Liberals have a look a the Ontario Liberals sometime.

Punitive justice: Where do you get that statement "most crime"? The Correction services own webside says: On average, 2% of offenders in the community were readmitted for new offences over the last 12 quarters. [/size]

It is well known that the majority of crimes, especially the ones that bother people the most, are committed by a minority of repeat offenders. Here, in the US and in the UK

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/courting-disaster-what-do-you-do-with-repeat-offenders

77 percent of felony defendants have at least one prior arrest and 69 percent have multiple prior arrests. 61 percent have at least one conviction and 49 percent have multiple convictions.

35 percent of those charged with felonies have 10 or more prior arrests and another 17 percent have between 5 to 9 arrests, thus 52 percent of charged felons have been arrested and before the courts many times.

40 percent of those charged with burglary and motor vehicle theft have 10 or more arrests. 30 percent of violent offenders have 10 or more prior arrests.

http://www.crimeinamerica.net/2010/06/02/repeat-felons-dominate-the-criminal-justice-system%E2%80%94most-convicted-felons-do-not-serve-time-in-prison%E2%80%94part-one/

Aboriginal rights:... didn't say anything about "popular". Just the facts.

Ultimately, what has to be done with native rights is reduce them, and incorporate their populations into the mainstream. Most Canadians feel the same way. We cannot go on forever paying large groups of people to squat in the woods leading miserable lives of violence, hopelessness and addiction.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Argus

[Derek 2.0]

Just adopt the tactics of Donald Trump.

Spout lies, make outlandish claims, attack everybody vigorously... the more outrageous the better.

It will get you a few hundred million dollars worth of free media coverage, and voila!

Or Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party of Canada.

[overthere]

The Conservatives should move a lot farther to the right. Harper didn't go far enough.

Harper moved the party to the center. That is how he gained a majority. Park the old boogeyman meme, it just doesn't work any more.

If the Cons seek votes, they need to do what they did at the recent convention - be seen to be socially liberal. They were socially liberal during Harpers term as PM, but were seen by the simpleminded as something else. They also need to be fiscally conservative, something they were not during Harpers term. Both elements have considerable appeal to taxpayers.

[Derek 2.0]

I've said it before a number of times. If you analyse the winners and losers of the last half dozen federal races here or in the US, you find that the personable, folksy guy wins out. Harper was the exception, but not by much given his opponents were stiff and poor speakers.

I agree fully......Paul Martin made Harper look like a personable sort.......

Retail Politics at it finest...........from the recent (before convention polls) the two "leaders" in the CPC leadership race at the front:

Peter Mackay and Kevin O'Leary.......on paper, in my opinion, the moderate Peter Mackay would make a great leader, yet (per retail politics) Kevin O'Leary sells.......as I posted above, Mackay is followed by nearly 18k people on Twitter......Kevin O'Leary, over a 1/2 million......O'Leary is liberal on social issues, moderate on foreign policy and hawkish on fiscal policy........combined with being from Quebec, a self made millionaire, a mixed race minority (Lebanese/Irish) and of course name recognition and media/public speaking savvy.

Absent a major economic implosion or scandal on the part of the Trudeau Government, of the current mentioned Tory field of potential leaders, in my opinion, only an O'Leary could beat Trudeau in 2019 and form Government.

[Argus]

If the Cons seek votes, they need to do what they did at the recent convention - be seen to be socially liberal. They were socially liberal during Harpers term as PM, but were seen by the simpleminded as something else. They also need to be fiscally conservative, something they were not during Harpers term. Both elements have considerable appeal to taxpayers.

Somewhat socially liberal. But they will never be as socially liberal, nor be seen to be, as the Liberals and NDP, and should not lose the enthusiasm of conservatives by going for votes from people who will never vote for them. Remember that the number of religious conservatives is rising with immigration from extremely socially conservative countries, and many of these people will find the socially liberal views of the Liberals and NDP anathema.

I agree, however, that the Conservatives need to be 'seen' as more socially liberal on some subjects. Law and order is not among them, however. And accepting gay marriage is not the same as being seen as enthusiastically supporting it - which in my view would gain them very little.

[Derek 2.0]

If the Cons seek votes, they need to do what they did at the recent convention - be seen to be socially liberal. They were socially liberal during Harpers term as PM, but were seen by the simpleminded as something else. They also need to be fiscally conservative, something they were not during Harpers term. Both elements have considerable appeal to taxpayers.

Hmmmmmm

[Argus]

Peter Mackay and Kevin O'Leary.......on paper, in my opinion, the moderate Peter Mackay would make a great leader, yet (per retail politics) Kevin O'Leary sells.......as I posted above, Mackay is followed by nearly 18k people on Twitter......Kevin O'Leary, over a 1/2 million......O'Leary is liberal on social issues, moderate on foreign policy and hawkish on fiscal policy........combined with being from Quebec, a self made millionaire, a mixed race minority (Lebanese/Irish) and of course name recognition and media/public speaking savvy.

The problem is O'Leary doesn't speak a word of French and has already said he sucks at learning a second language. That will not only cost them heavily in Quebec, which still has the most seats in Canada outside Ontario, but will hurt them as the media plays up the theme about how a unilingual PM will be divisive and be a bonus for separatism.

[Derek 2.0]

The problem is O'Leary doesn't speak a word of French and has already said he sucks at learning a second language. That will not only cost them heavily in Quebec, which still has the most seats in Canada outside Ontario, but will hurt them as the media plays up the theme about how a unilingual PM will be divisive and be a bonus for separatism.

I don't think so......Harper was able to form Government and govern without Quebec, and he was an evil Westerner...........O'Leary grew up in Quebec and lives in Ontario........I don't discount that the media would attempt to make it an issue, but I don't see it hurting him in any real way.

[Argus]

I don't think so......Harper was able to form Government and govern without Quebec, and he was an evil Westerner...........O'Leary grew up in Quebec and lives in Ontario........I don't discount that the media would attempt to make it an issue, but I don't see it hurting him in any real way.

They have a dozen seats in Quebec, so they'd need to pick up a dozen more somewhere else to make up for that because they'd likely lose most of them. and the media WILL definitely bring it up again and again and again.

Kenney has spent the last some years working the newcomer circuit and has a ton of contacts among ethnic communities. Most of those communities are natural conservative voters if played right since they tend to be extremely socially conservative.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Argus

[Icebound]

Ultimately, what has to be done with native rights is reduce them,

Make sure you put THAT into the Conservative platform. I don't think that the website's "policy declaration" has anything in it about aboriginals.

What "has to be done" is neither reduce them nor increase them, but to create practical long-term agreements that the parties can live with, even if they they do not embrace them jubilantly..

Whether "incorporation" into the mainstream population will happen will not be up to us, it will be up to them. Our "superior lifestyle" is not a bit seller with some people. And if we are the people of "justice" and "compassion" that we claim to be, it will be very difficult to sell a "take it or leave it" approach.

The "problem" has enough fault to go around,... the native population itself, the existing laws, the prejudices of the rest of us, the Authorities' handling of it all. But it won't be "solved" without agreement on all sides.

...

[Derek 2.0]

They have a dozen seats in Quebec, so they'd need to pick up a dozen more somewhere else to make up for that because they'd likely lose most of them.

They need far more than a dozen seats..............none of the current and speculated field, that speak french well, baring a Trudeau implosion, will win Government, and in some cases, could hand Trudeau an even larger majority.

Kenney has spent the last some years working the newcomer circuit and has a ton of contacts among ethnic communities. Most of those communities are natural conservative voters if played right since they tend to be extremely socially conservative.

You're worried about the media playing up O'Leary not speaking french? Kenney is the mini-me Harper, they would have a field day with Jason Kenney.......again revisiting retail politics, the only former Harper cabinet ministers that might have a chance against Trudeau would be a young Rempel or maybe a Lisa Raitt (i.e. a Women).

[Argus]

Whether "incorporation" into the mainstream population will happen will not be up to us, it will be up to them.

No, it is ultimately up to us, and how much we're willing to pay them to sit in the bushes. And as the percentage of 'newcomers' rises there will be less and less sentiment that is okay with that. Newcomers don't understand and don't support paying hundreds of thousands of people to live in the bushes and do nothing.

Our "superior lifestyle" is not a bit seller with some people. And if we are the people of "justice" and "compassion" that we claim to be, it will be very difficult to sell a "take it or leave it" approach.

I'm all for going slow and taking all kinds of steps to ease the transition, even expensive ones, but ultimately that has to be the way to go. Living out on reserves is not economically sustainable, and their numbers continue to grow, which means the cost of maintaining them out there is continuing to grow. Besides, it's a crappy life without purpose, which is why the reserves have such high incidences of addiction and violence.

[Argus]

They need far more than a dozen seats..............none of the current and speculated field, that speak french well, baring a Trudeau implosion, will win Government, and in some cases, could hand Trudeau an even larger majority.

They need more than a dozen but if you start by deducting a dozen you need even more.

You're worried about the media playing up O'Leary not speaking french? Kenney is the mini-me Harper, they would have a field day with Jason Kenney.......again revisiting retail politics, the only former Harper cabinet ministers that might have a chance against Trudeau would be a young Rempel or maybe a Lisa Raitt (i.e. a Women).

Kenney is not Harper. He is more likeable, more agreeable, performs better in front of the cameras and has a history of being more willing to cooperate and talk with opponents. He's one of the few ministers who would regularly appear for interviews with the networks, probably because Harper trusted him to do well and not get suckered. I like Rempel, but I don't think she has the experience yet.

[Newfoundlander]

I don't think so......Harper was able to form Government and govern without Quebec, and he was an evil Westerner...........O'Leary grew up in Quebec and lives in Ontario........I don't discount that the media would attempt to make it an issue, but I don't see it hurting him in any real way.

The other candidates in the race are making a big deal about it, let alone the media bringing it up.