Canada's Right

[Cartman]

I have noticed that the right is far more likely to identify with the United States than is the left. Why do some people identify so closely with US symbols? Is it some sort of social Stockholm Syndrome or something? Many people own US flags etc. Why not identify with Canadian symbols and values and buy Canadian flags? Is is not better to be a Canadian nationalist than a US nationalist living in Canada? I don't "get this" at all. As a self-identified lefty, I certainly do not have a Swedish flag or a Soviet flag.

[Newfie Canadian]

Is is not better to be a Canadian nationalist than a US nationalist living in Canada

IMO, yes.

Why not identify with Canadian symbols and values and buy Canadian flags?

I do. The problem is (in the context of your question) is that we are on the doorstep of the US, and therefore affected by and subjected to their culture and all the symbols, icons and values.

Why do some people identify so closely with US symbols?

Because we are so close to the US, we are costantly inundated by the US media, which is what many people watch and listen to for information. What's your favourite TV show? If every Canadian, right or left, answered that question, I would suggest the majority would answer with an American show.

American culture, symbols and all, are all over the place, and we as Canadians have done a bad job in supporting our own. Look at the film industry. Instead of supporting local and Canadian content, the industry, in the pursuit of the almighty American dollar, largely ignores Candiana.

In regards to the right in Canada identifying with the US, we have to be careful there, as the US appears to be heading more and more towards to far right than the moderate center. If we assume this to be true, the Canadian right may not identify with the US for that much longer, at least not on the scale that we are used to saying.

I hope all that made sense to someone.

[August1991]

The term "Liberal Party of Canada" has successfully joined itself with the term "Canada". Anyone who is against the Liberal Party is against Canada.

Trudeau resigned himself to this fact and then went about thoroughly using the idea. Mulroney had to fight against it. Harper barely made a claim that it is possible to be Canadian and yet not Liberal.

The true opposition to this idea of Canada comes from two sources: Alberta and Quebec. Both are periodically denounced as being unCanadian.

[maplesyrup]

Gee, I can't wait until Quebec discovers oil and gas.

Quebec separatists have been described as unCanadian I reasonable description, I surmise.

A lot of Albertans didn't seem to share the same values as the rest of Canada for quite some time, however now that a lot of other Canadians are moving into Alberta, Alberta values are shifting, as evidenced by the recent provincial election there.

[Cartman]

The term "Liberal Party of Canada" has successfully joined itself with the term "Canada". Anyone who is against the Liberal Party is against Canada.

Now that sounds familiar.

No particular political party has a monopoly on Canadian nationalism of course, but one does have a monopoly on pro-American patriotism. Let me see...which federal party would be considered "pro-American"?

[Argus]

I have noticed that the right is far more likely to identify with the United States than is the left.

You mean the right is less likely to be anti-American than the left. That is because the "right" is generally more knowledgeable and intelligent.

Why do some people identify so closely with US symbols?

You have not made a case that anyone identifies with "US symbols" nor what those "symbols" might be.

Many people own US flags etc.  Why not identify with Canadian symbols and values and buy Canadian flags?

Who says many people own US flags? Define "many". Who says they don't have Canadian flags too? You are asking questions based on "facts" which are not in evidence.

[Cartman]

You mean the right is less likely to be anti-American than the left. That is because the "right" is generally more knowledgeable and intelligent.

No, actually I meant what I said. I suspect that the right is more likely to be pro-American and therefore less patriotic to Canada than is the left. A quick comparison of left and right discussion forums easily demonstrates as much.

[Black Dog]

You mean the right is less likely to be anti-American than the left.

I'll give you a shiny nickel if you can define anti-Americanism for me.

That is because the "right" is generally more knowledgeable and intelligent.

Based on the caliber of posts on this board, I'd have to disagree.

[Argus]

You mean the right is less likely to be anti-American than the left. That is because the "right" is generally more knowledgeable and intelligent.

No, actually I meant what I said. I suspect that the right is more likely to be pro-American and therefore less patriotic to Canada than is the left. A quick comparison of left and right discussion forums easily demonstrates as much.

Your error is in assuming that being "pro-American" even presuming your term bares any resemblance to reality, makes one "less patriotic", than ignorant zealots.

[Argus]

You mean the right is less likely to be anti-American than the left.

I'll give you a shiny nickel if you can define anti-Americanism for me.

I suspect my definition of "anti-American" would be as unacceptable to you as yours is to me.

However, there is a certain type out there who seem so confused about their basic self identity as Canadian that the only way they can identify themselves is as "Not American".

There are people who are jealous of the Americans for their wealth and power, and resent them for it. There are people who are simply anti-Capitalism and blame them as the home of Capitalism. There are people who are anti-militarist - often the same as those who are anti-capitalist - and hate the Americans for the emphasis they put on military strength. Most anti-Americans have some of the above characteristics. The most bigoted have all of them.

In truth, the Americans are no worse in their behaviour than almost anyone else. They're simply bigger, and have vastly broader interests in the world to protect, and, of course, far more influence and power.

[Cartman]

I believe that patriotism is a continuum. You are either a Canadian patriot or an American patriot. If you are more pro-American then you are less of a Canadian patriot. IMO, you cannot have it both ways.

[Argus]

I believe that patriotism is a continuum. You are either a Canadian patriot or an American patriot. If you are more pro-American then you are less of a Canadian patriot. IMO, you cannot have it both ways.

You certainly can. One is not exclusive to the other. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that what is generally good for the US is in our interests as well. For example, although I have some reservations, I do believe in the "clash of civilizations". Therefore, I believe the US efforts in the middle east are not just in their interests but ours, as well.

[Newfie Canadian]

One is not exclusive to the other. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that what is generally good for the US is in our interests as well

With the recent divergence of the political spectrums between Canada and the US (Canada more to the left and the US more to the right), I suspect that is becoming less true in certain areas Argus. There are of course, obvious exceptions.

I don't believe that mutual interest and cooperation = patriotic feelings or tendencies.

I believe you can believe in another country, admire it, respect it, even love it, but I believe in your heart of hearts you can only be truly patriotic to one.

[caesar]

You certainly can. One is not exclusive to the other. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that what is generally good for the US is in our interests as well. For example, although I have some reservations, I do believe in the "clash of civilizations". Therefore, I believe the US efforts in the middle east are not just in their interests but ours, as well.

The USA interference and aggression is NOT in our interests nor in theirs. It has as I predicted only fueled more terrorism; spread the terrorists and made us all less safe. Killing innocent civillians women and children for nothing. Inexcusable!!!!!!

[August1991]

I suspect that the right is more likely to be pro-American and therefore less patriotic to Canada than is the left. A quick comparison of left and right discussion forums easily demonstrates as much.

This is precisely what I mean Cartman, and I find it disturbing.

You are basically saying that, in Canada, if someone is "right", then that person is less "patriotic".

And you are also implying that, in Canada, to be patriotic, you must be "anti-American". (I have always found this idea to be truly pathetic: Canada is defined by what it is not.)

The Liberal Party of Canada is a past master at these kinds of argument. They generally work in Ontario because without the other provinces, Ontario would just be another Michigan.

[maplesyrup]

I believe that patriotism is a continuum.  You are either a Canadian patriot or an American patriot.  If you are more pro-American then you are less of a Canadian patriot.  IMO, you cannot have it both ways.

Cartman....I agree. As the differences in values between our two countries becomes more and more pronounced, and as the disgusting behaviour of the US bullies over softwood lumber and mad cow, etc. shows, it is obvious you can't be both.

[Guest eureka]

God gave to man all earth to love

But, since our hearts are small.

Ordained to each one special place

Beloved over all.

It is not possible to discuss Canadian identity without reference to the differences to the USA. Canada was born to be different; to be an opposition the the US. Every institution we have was created to be something that was not American.

It, therefore, is not possible to be pro-American in an institutional sense or in value systems without being to some degree anti-Canadian.

If only the economic considerations are to matter, then good luck to any who wants a piece of American Pie. but don't thinlk of it as a degree of patriotism.

[Cartman]

You are basically saying that, in Canada, if someone is "right", then that person is less "patriotic".

No, I have already said that advocating a reduction in government intervention does not make you "pro-American" but I suspect that more "pro-Americans" advance a reduction in Canadian government intervention. They are different.

Not everyone is equally patriotic.

And you are also implying that, in Canada, to be patriotic, you must be "anti-American". (I have always found this idea to be truly pathetic: Canada is defined by what it is not.)

NC put it well in saying:

I don't believe that mutual interest and cooperation = patriotic feelings or tendencies.

I believe you can believe in another country, admire it, respect it, even love it, but I believe in your heart of hearts you can only be truly patriotic to one.

[August1991]

The rest of your post, I find reasonable Cartman. Except:

Not everyone is equally patriotic.

To turn the tables a little, I have always found the American penchant to question each other's patriotism as distasteful. (Their penchant for bumper stickers is merely amusing.)

As to NC's quote:

I believe you can believe in another country, admire it, respect it, even love it, but I believe in your heart of hearts you can only be truly patriotic to one.

I find it ironic since I know more than one Newfoundlander who owes ultimately, if push came to shove, a greater allegiance to Newfoundland than to Canada.

Canada works best when individual Canadians are not forced to make a choice between their region and the country as a whole.

Patriotism is the polite word for nationalism. And fortunately, nationalism cannot go far in Canada since it would tear the country apart.

[Cartman]

Canada works best when individual Canadians are not forced to make a choice between their region and the country as a whole.

Patriotism is the polite word for nationalism. And fortunately, nationalism cannot go far in Canada since it would tear the country apart.

Agreed. I would really like to know if most Albertans are more loyal to their region or their nation. I am not sure but I suspect that we are becoming more nationalistic as more and more people enter the province. A lot of people from NFLD seem to be arriving (even in the south).

[Newfie Canadian]

I find it ironic since I know more than one Newfoundlander who owes ultimately, if push came to shove, a greater allegiance to Newfoundland than to Canada.

It is true that many Newfoundlanders consider themselves Newfoundlanders first and Canadians second. I am not one of those people. I also kow that many Labradorians consider themselves Labradorians first, then Canadians and then Newfoundlanders.

Remember, or for those who didn't know realize, that in 1947 the vote to enter Confederation was carried by a 1% majority.

But I don't believe a majority of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians consider themselves (or want to be) their own countries.

Canada works best when individual Canadians are not forced to make a choice between their region and the country as a whole.

Unfortunately, I also agree.

Patriotism is the polite word for nationalism. And fortunately, nationalism cannot go far in Canada since it would tear the country apart.

This I'm not so sure about August.

I've always considered nationalism as a practical feeling, a feeling that your nation's individual choices, workings and needs, political and economic, are worth your devotion.

Patriotism on the other hand, I've always considered more abstract and emotional, a feeling that what your country stands for as a society is worth your devotion.

It's unconditional.

Look at the WJHC, coming up in December. I'll watch and I'll cheer, not because of nationalism, but because of patriotism. I fly my Canadian flag because of patriotism, not nationalism.

When the WHO or the UN comes out with stats saying that Canada is near the top in some of it's living/health indexes, I'm proud because of nationalism. When the Canadian government made a choice to stay out of Iraq, I was happy because of nationalism.

I dont know how to explain it. I may be making no sense at all.

[Argus]

You certainly can. One is not exclusive to the other. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that what is generally good for the US is in our interests as well. For example, although I have some reservations, I do believe in the "clash of civilizations". Therefore, I believe the US efforts in the middle east are not just in their interests but ours, as well.

The USA interference and aggression is NOT in our interests nor in theirs. It has as I predicted only fueled more terrorism; spread the terrorists and made us all less safe. Killing innocent civillians women and children for nothing. Inexcusable!!!!!!

I lack much trust in your ability to judge what is in anyone's best interests given your clear lack of understanding of international issues.

[Argus]

I believe that patriotism is a continuum.  You are either a Canadian patriot or an American patriot.  If you are more pro-American then you are less of a Canadian patriot.  IMO, you cannot have it both ways.

Cartman....I agree. As the differences in values between our two countries becomes more and more pronounced

There really aren't a whole lot of differences between the people here and the people there, our aspirations, our beliefs, or our cultures. In many ways, aside from various accents in the US south and west you can't tell the difference between Americans and Canadians.

, and as the disgusting behaviour of the US bullies over softwood lumber and mad cow, etc. shows,  it is obvious you can't be both.

What it shows is that trading partners will invariably have disagreements. However, given we have a $92,000,000,000 trade surplus I don't really think we're in any position to whine.

[Argus]

It is not possible to discuss Canadian identity without reference to the differences to the USA. Canada was born to be different; to be an opposition the the US. Every institution we have was created to be something that was not American.

By the great God Zeuss? Or was it Apollo? If you want to argue your quaint little fantasies maybe you should find a science fiction group somewhere.

[Argus]

One is not exclusive to the other. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that what is generally good for the US is in our interests as well

With the recent divergence of the political spectrums between Canada and the US (Canada more to the left and the US more to the right), I suspect that is becoming less true in certain areas Argus. There are of course, obvious exceptions.

I'm not at all sure there is a great divergence either between governments or people.

You have two very similar democratic capitalist nations tightly linked cultures and economies. What is good for one is often going to be good for the other. And of course, the opposite is also true. The cultural value systems are largely the same, as well. Ignore the media elites in Toronto. They are not representative of anyone. As for the political elites - neither country's political class seems to have any set ideology other than self-interest.

I don't believe that mutual interest and cooperation = patriotic feelings or tendencies.

Patriotism is hardly the right term to use with respect to Canadians who like/approve of the United States. However, Canadians who grow up on a steady stream of American movies, TV shows, books, magazines and music can be forgiven for identifying, to some extent, with the United States and its people.