Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 People can answer it just fine. No, people can offer their uniformed opinion. Its an insurance adjustment question... we know we cant insure against all the possible threats out there so its really just a matter of how risk adverse people want to be. If Canadians want to under-insure or over-insure, then that's their choice. It might not be smart but its still their choice. Sure, but the Government then should be presenting the potential threats and outcomes to Canadians......they after all are staffed with experts and have all the information............not asking uninformed Canadians what their opinion is. And your assessment of the ability of Canadians to provide useful feedback is not all that relevant. They are the ones expected to pay the bills, and they can remove civilian leadership if they feel like it. It makes good sense to get feedback from key stakeholders. No its very much so relevant, as there is very much so a difference between uninformed opinions versus educated analysis. Maybe Revenue Canada should send out a survey asking Canadians what level of taxes they feel they should pay Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 get a grip! Clearly this is an attempt at inclusiveness - you know, something foreign to the 'party of Harper'... which is what it still is at this point! . Ahhh so its feel-good fluff....... If nothing else, legitimate layperson responses will provide a certain perspective on general Canadian's views towards the military, the role Canada's military should play in the world community of nations vis-a-vis recognized/perceived threats, prioritization of procurement based on recognized/perceived threats, etc.. What else would you expect from a general layperson public response to that survey? And why does said perspective mater? If enough laypersons respond suggesting Canada cut its defense spending by 50% (or inversely increase it by 50%) is the Government going to respond? If enough laypersons were angered over the Government "re-profiling" DND funds into the next decade, would the government reverse course? Quote
waldo Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Clearly this is an attempt to do what is popular instead of what is best for the nation.....it shows the lack of leadership on the current Government , one that is faced with some tough choices it does not want to make, and is delegating those choices to the public so they do not have to look bad..... it's a part of the overall - why do you insist in making it more than it is? Why doesn't the general public get a voice in your expectations of a review? . Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 it's a part of the overall - why do you insist in making it more than it is? Why doesn't the general public get a voice in your expectations of a review? . How is the public's voice weighted in this review? Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) why not hold a referendum on everything then.....let the people decided what is best for the nation.....When it's citizens do not have the time to be fully informed on all matters....we all have opinions, does not make them right does it... So your saying everyone and everything that contributes to paying the bills should have a say in all matters in government. This isn't a referendum, its a stakeholder consultation. If you don't know the difference then some basic management training might be in order. You must send your wife down to purchase your tools, or your new truck, or if you have a business the tools you need for that.....after all she assists in paying the bills, yet she might not know a hammer from a screw driver....it makes good sense.... How does it make sense, when I have a plumbing issue with my home I don't phone the paving company to come over and fix it... No stakeholders don't micromanage projects. I WOULD however ask my wife which projects around our property are the most important to her. Maybe she thinks fixing the driveway is more important than remodeling the bathroom. Or maybe she wants to fix the driveway but doesnt want to spend the money on a concrete driveway so we should look at installing asphalt instead or blue-chip. Unless you understand these concepts I guarantee you will fail in any kind of management role you ever find yourself in. Edited April 7, 2016 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
waldo Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Ahhh so its feel-good fluff....... And why does said perspective mater? If enough laypersons respond suggesting Canada cut its defense spending by 50% (or inversely increase it by 50%) is the Government going to respond? If enough laypersons were angered over the Government "re-profiling" DND funds into the next decade, would the government reverse course? I just quoted the Defence Minister speaking to the breadth of input across a myriad of sources - you completely ignore that and choose to immediately consider a disproportionate weighting will be assigned to layperson responses? Go figure! . Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 I just quoted the Defence Minister speaking to the breadth of input across a myriad of sources - you completely ignore that and choose to immediately consider a disproportionate weighting will be assigned to layperson responses? Go figure! . As I asked in my last post, what level of weight is given to the public's responses? At what point does a wave of ignorance drown out the likes of a Manley, Dallaire, Mackenzie or a Hillier? Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 And why does said perspective mater? If enough laypersons respond suggesting Canada cut its defense spending by 50% (or inversely increase it by 50%) is the Government going to respond? If enough laypersons were angered over the Government "re-profiling" DND funds into the next decade, would the government reverse course? It matters because we are not a technocracy (at least not quite yet). If government policy is way out of line with what taxpayers want to see then that governments mandate will be cancelled and that government will be replaced with a new one that will make a different policy. If this happens all the money spent so far is likely to be wasted. If enough laypersons respond suggesting Canada cut its defense spending by 50% (or inversely increase it by 50%) is the Government going to respond? Not directly. This isn't a referendum. But the opinion of the people expected to pay the bills will be one of the many things considered. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
waldo Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 As I asked in my last post, what level of weight is given to the public's responses? At what point does a wave of ignorance drown out the likes of a Manley, Dallaire, Mackenzie or a Hillier? by your forceful negative reactionary posts one would think you must know that weighting... . Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 It matters because we are not a technocracy (at least not quite yet). If government policy is way out of line with what taxpayers want to see then that governments mandate will be cancelled and that government will be replaced with a new one that will make a different policy. If this happens all the money spent so far is likely to be wasted. So the Government should seek the populace's opinion on tax policy? Not directly. This isn't a referendum. But the opinion of the people expected to pay the bills will be one of the many things considered. If said survey was done for Federal tax policy, and the majority felt only the richest 10% and evil corporations should pay taxes, would/should the government consider this opinion? Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 As I asked in my last post, what level of weight is given to the public's responses? At what point does a wave of ignorance drown out the likes of a Manley, Dallaire, Mackenzie or a Hillier? Well if that's your take on things, why put elected governments in charge of defense at all? Just put technocrats in charge and leave them in there for ever. In fact... why even have representative government? After all your experts don't need the unwashed masses muddling up their decision making. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 by your forceful negative reactionary posts one would think you must know that weighting... . I wouldn't ask if I knew........the public survey either carries a measure of weight in this process or it doesn't, in which case its just feel-good fluff. Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 So the Government should seek the populace's opinion on tax policy? Absolutely, they should, must, and do. Some people want a high level of taxation and services... some people want low taxation and less services. If ignore them you will get kicked to the curb and your policies will go nowhere. If said survey was done for Federal tax policy, and the majority felt only the richest 10% and evil corporations should pay taxes, would/should the government consider this opinion? Absolutely... the government should consider the populations opinion on marginal tax rates. If they don't they will go bye bye. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Well if that's your take on things, why put elected governments in charge of defense at all? Just put technocrats in charge and leave them in there for ever. In fact... why even have representative government? After all your experts don't need the unwashed masses muddling up their decision making. What percentage of Canadians favor paying taxes? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Absolutely, they should, must, and do. Some people want a high level of taxation and services... some people want low taxation and less services. If ignore them you will get kicked to the curb and your policies will go nowhere. Absolutely... the government should consider the populations opinion on marginal tax rates. If they don't they will go bye bye. And if the majority of Canadians don't want to pay taxes? Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 I wouldn't ask if I knew........the public survey either carries a measure of weight in this process or it doesn't, in which case its just feel-good fluff. That feedback just goes into the universe of data being considered. There's no simple formula for how the government uses or "weights" public opinion. The degree to which it influences decision making is different on a case by case basis. Sometimes the government has to ignore public opinion on certain issues. Sometimes it cant. In either case though it needs to keep its finger on the pulse of the electorate. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 What percentage of Canadians favor paying taxes? 99.9% or there abouts. Only a few quacks believe in a society without taxation, and with zero services. Hard-core anarchists... minarchist libertarians... folks like that. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
waldo Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 In either case though it needs to keep its finger on the pulse of the electorate. the concept is still foreign to many/most of the Conservative persuasion . Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 99.9% or there abouts. Only a few quacks believe in a society without taxation, and with zero services. Hard-core anarchists... minarchist libertarians... folks like that. Sure, but if the majority of middle class taxpayers favored a 25% reduction in their taxes, the government should listen? Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 And if the majority of Canadians don't want to pay taxes? Then they will vote for governments that campaign on cutting government services. Like I said though... that's just a few quacks. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Sometimes the government has to ignore public opinion on certain issues. In this case, how we will elect the next Government...........but not on how we defend our country. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Then they will vote for governments that campaign on cutting government services. Like I said though... that's just a few quacks. You know this how? I would assume if asked most Canadians would favor paying less money for the same or more levels of Government services...... Quote
dre Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Sure, but if the majority of middle class taxpayers favored a 25% reduction in their taxes, the government should listen? That's a large and powerful voting block and yes... the government has to take those opinions into account. It doesn't mean they are going to show up in parliament the next day and introduce a bill cutting their taxes, but the information may cause them to consider cutting services, reconsider increasing services. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Derek 2.0 Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 That's a large and powerful voting block and yes... the government has to take those opinions into account. It doesn't mean they are going to show up in parliament the next day and introduce a bill cutting their taxes, but the information may cause them to consider cutting services, reconsider increasing services. Why not? ------- Like I said this Government seeks the populace's opinion on national defense, but not on electoral reform..... Quote
waldo Posted April 7, 2016 Report Posted April 7, 2016 Like I said this Government seeks the populace's opinion on national defense, but not on electoral reform..... say what? Isn't there a Common Committee charged with leading public consultation on electoral reform? . Quote
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