Trudeau 'revenue neutral' tax changes - not even close

[Smallc]

False comparison. Black Canadians are almost entirely first or second generation African immigrants. The comparable group in the US would be, unsurprisingly, first or second generation African immigrants. And yes, they do better.

You have yet to provide citations that prove any of what you're saying.

[hitops]

How are we splitting hairs? As I said, my wife practiced her profession, well receiving additional training, under a J-1 visa. If those circumstances aren't applicable to you, as said, talk to a lawyer.

"well receiving additional training" is why a J-1 worked. I'm not looking for a work/training situation, because I want to make full staff wages. It is the same with everyone I know who went to the US for work. While you train, you are paid, but it is training and you are paid doc-in-training wages. Even if I could full in a full-time independent practice making full wages, and also train, once the training is done, you need to leave according to the state department website info on J-1.

The issue is what? I relayed our friends (and my wife's) experience, which very much so included (as cited) the writing of exams in the State one wishes to practice in, which is a legal requirement. I didn't speak to their content or their difficulty, as I am not in the healthcare profession.

If you wife is a dentist, I have no idea what exams a state might require them to write. For docs, USMLE is required, I wish it were not so.

From your link:

Neither PERM nor national interest waiver is realistic for docs wanting to work. The problems with those are outlined in that same link. NIW is granted to basically nobody (I spoke with lawyer about this), and PERM is not realistic if you are already employed in Canada.

As I said, talk to an American immigration lawyer......as one, I'm not an immigration lawyer, and two, my wife's (or friends experiences) might differ, as they were over a decade ago (two now for my wife) and laws, regulations and rules do change.......what is clear (and highlighted in your above link), there are several other alternative, and legal, methods to make the switch.

You wife is a dentist and when in the US, was in training (whether training alone, or training AND working). I'm not interested in that, because I am done my training. J-1 will not work for me. NAFTA, also no. NIW and PERM and NIW are basically a shot in the dark and having called many employers, I can tell you that only a minority have a clue what they are, and none expressed any interest in jumping through those hoops.

The clearest, most reasonable path as a non-training, full graduate of Canada, the path which every single Canadian doc I know has followed, is to write the exams and apply for H1-B with a job offer. I wish it were not the case, but unfortunately that's how it is. I am highly motivated and routinely make things happen for friends and family when they cannot. I am no stranger to finding a way when needed. Myself, and dozens of other equally high-motivated colleagues who have looked at and agonized over this ad infinitum, have not found a realistic path outside H1-B. The only doc I know who has achieved US full-time employment in the last 10 years without an H1-B, got a green card because his wife was a US citizen.

I will take your advice though and call more lawyers. The other issue is just practical, it would probably take me less time and money to just write the exams.

Edited January 29, 2016 by hitops

[hitops]

You have yet to provide citations that prove any of what you're saying.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?_r=0(see paragraph 8)

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/st_2015-04-09_black-immigrants-13/

[Smallc]

So no valid citations then.

[hitops]

So no valid citations then.

Maybe you should clarify what you want cited. I mistakenly assumed that when you quoted my statement and asked for a citation, you were wanting something related to what you quoted. Guess I should have increased the gain on my mindreader 3000.

Edited February 1, 2016 by hitops

[Smallc]

You need to compare and contrast the status of various groups on each side on the border.

[hitops]

You need to compare and contrast the status of various groups on each side on the border.

How about natives as an example. Different sources will give slightly different numbers.

The AFN says average household income for aboriginals was 16K in 2006.

http://www.afn.ca/uploads/files/factsheets/quality_of_life_final_fe.pdf

US census says median household income for native Americans was 35K in 2011.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/cb11-ff22.html

Not a perfect comparision - different years, median vs average, CDN vs USD. We can crudely correct for this:

- USD worth more (add 30% for US)

- Average normally higher than median when talking about incomes statistics (about 10-20% higher depending)

- Incomes normally improve over time (1-2% inflation per year)

Overall, better down south. None of that even touches on things like how they have far more access to goods, much cheaper food (especially produce) and fuel, and other things that affect quality of life.

Edited February 2, 2016 by hitops

[Smallc]

That's more like it.

My complaint now would be -

The AFN is trying to get more money for aboriginals and the US government doesn't want to pay anymore and that mean and median are very different things. I'll have to look into it further though.

[hitops]

That's more like it.

My complaint now would be -

The AFN is trying to get more money for aboriginals and the US government doesn't want to pay anymore and that mean and median are very different things. I'll have to look into it further though.

I doubt they made it up. I doubt it is a coincidence their number comes from 2006 - the last time we had the long form census.

I'm not sure you are really wanting more data on the state of Nigerians as an example of an African immigrant group. Given the sources I've provided, I doubt you would argue that they are similar to African Americans.

We need to compare similar groups. We have never had African slaves, nor do we have descendants of any (other than perhaps a tiny minority who may have come here from the US), so we can't look at their African Americans, who are by far the worst performing group in either nation, and say their poverty is worse by means of their economic system.

It's same reason we can't look at a nations mostly consisting of well-educated white people and conclude we should do what they do. If we want to compare to Sweden say, we need to compare Sweden to Canadian well educated white people. Most likely if we did so, we would find that group does as well or better in Canada, and pays a lot less in tax. Even more so in the US, would be my guess.

Edited February 2, 2016 by hitops

[Smallc]

And you may be right. Overall though, we can't say that every group does better in the US sans one in terms of earnings. If they did, our earnings would be significantly less overall, which they aren't (on a comparative basis, they're now slightly less probably, after spending 5 years or so being slightly higher). The different for Canada of course will be the cost of living (a function of a better paid lower class and logistics) and taxes, but those are things that Canadians have decided they want to live with.

[bush_cheney2004]

...We need to compare similar groups. We have never had African slaves, .....

That certainly isn't true, as Canada did have African slaves, just in far lower numbers. Slavery for "aboriginals" was more common and numerous.

Can't compare the U.S. and Canada to explain any tax policies in Canada.....

[hitops]

And you may be right. Overall though, we can't say that every group does better in the US sans one in terms of earnings. If they did, our earnings would be significantly less overall, which they aren't (on a comparative basis, they're now slightly less probably, after spending 5 years or so being slightly higher). The different for Canada of course will be the cost of living (a function of a better paid lower class and logistics) and taxes, but those are things that Canadians have decided they want to live with.

I take issue with those claims

- The brief 2 years when our earnings were more than the US, was due entirely due to the resource boom and our dollar coming to parity. Now that we are back to $0.70, they earn more again, just as they always did before.

- With the exchange rate, the average minimum wage in the US is basically the same as in Canada

- Even if we have a 'better paid lower class', the consequent increased cost of living most disproportionately affects that same lower class. It's just shifting the deck chairs, minus the waste lost due to the costs of the shifting.

- None of that is even considering the fact that we don't really pay our lower class more. In reality, we pay some of them more, and price others out of the labor market into unemployment. The US unemployment is indeed much lower than ours.

A real comparison of our lower class workforce would be to compare Americans making minimum wage to the average of Canadians making minimum wage added to the extra percentage of those employed who are making nothing.

Edited February 2, 2016 by hitops

[hitops]

That certainly isn't true, as Canada did have African slaves, just in far lower numbers. Slavery for "aboriginals" was more common and numerous.

This number is so tiny it is not worth worrying about how it might affect the numbers. They are far outnumbered by African immigrants, whereas in the US the descendants of slaves far outnumber the immigrants. These are not comparable groups of blacks.

Edited February 2, 2016 by hitops

[bush_cheney2004]

This number is so tiny it is not worth worrying about how it might affect the numbers. They are far outnumbered by African immigrants, whereas in the US the descendants of slaves far outnumber the immigrants. These are not comparable groups of blacks.

Still a dead end....comparing "groups of blacks" makes about as much sense as comparing "groups of whites". Canada is not the United States...seek true Canadian tax policy explanations in Canada.

Edited February 2, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[hitops]

Still a dead end....comparing "groups of blacks" makes about as much sense as comparing "groups of whites". Canada is not the United States...seek true Canadian tax policy explanations in Canada.

I agree, but people insist on specious arguments that 'poverty is worse in the US'. The whole point is that the US is not comparable to Canada. But if we insist on comparing, we should at least make our best efforts at comparing the groups as similar as possible.

The fact that some African immigrants groups do tremendously well and vastly ourperform African Americans is an important piece of information in understanding what drives poverty and prosperity. Especially so, now that everybody is obsessed with racist explanations for everything.

Edited February 2, 2016 by hitops

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree, but people insist on specious arguments that 'poverty is worse in the US'. The whole point is that the US is not comparable to Canada. But if we insist on comparing, we should at least make our best efforts at comparing the groups as similar as possible.

It has always been thus...an inescapable, reflexive behaviour by some Canadians to explain all kinds of things....even their very identity. It is in their DNA to point at the United States, but there are too many variables and purposeful differences to make such comparisons for tax policy and standard of living. "Black people" in the United States are not a monolithic block, culturally or economically.

[hitops]

It has always been thus...an inescapable, reflexive behaviour by some Canadians to explain all kinds of things....even their very identity. It is in their DNA to point at the United States, but there are too many variables and purposeful differences to make such comparisons for tax policy and standard of living. "Black people" in the United States are not a monolithic block, culturally or economically.

That's also my same point. In particular, their are gaping differences in economic and social outcomes between so called African Americans and African black immigrants.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's also my same point. In particular, their are gaping differences in economic and social outcomes between so called African Americans and African black immigrants.

There are gaping differences just for African Americans alone, irrespective of African immigrants. Those who insist on making such comparisons to justify policies are intellectually lazy. Tax policy in Canada cannot be informed by the experiences of Americans in the United States, regardless of "race".

[hitops]

There are gaping differences just for African Americans alone, irrespective of African immigrants. Those who insist on making such comparisons to justify policies are intellectually lazy. Tax policy in Canada cannot be informed by the experiences of Americans in the United States, regardless of "race".

But Americans, and increasingly Canadians, love the politics of race. Most of the differences based on race disappear when you correct for other underlying factors.

[Smallc]

There are as if yet a lot of claims that have still not been proven in this thread. According the latest available staistics, they're also wrong. Canadians as of last year's available numbers did not earn less.

[Smallc]

Let me expand on that:

As I already said, median and mean are very different and can't be compared.

Canada has had larger wage gains than the US since 2010, when we were above them in terms of earnings.

Canada has lower taxes by far at the federal level up until the 90th percentile.

Canadians don't have health premiums that come anywhere near the almost $5000 average in the US.

Canadian poor were found to make, on average, 15% more than American poor, based on 2010 numbers.

Canadians have far lower costs for things like tuition and are becoming more educated overall.

The oil and gas sector makes up less than 5% of the economy. Therefore, high incomes cannot be largely attributed to that.

Exchange rates are not a simple tool that can be used to compare incomes. 2/3 of the Canadian economy is domestic, meaning costs are largely in Canadian Dollars.

[cybercoma]

Slavery for "aboriginals" was more common and numerous

Reference on those numbers please.

[Big Guy]

The cost of gas is all over the place - down, up, down, down, down, up, down, down, down ... Most folks have lost track of what is a "reasonable" price.

Time for the Liberals to slap a 5 cent a liter tax on gas at the pump. The cost of filling up is dropping, most people will not notice the increase in tax and those coming expenditures on infrastructure are going to be expensive. Lower the coming deficits.

I also understand that Obama is looking at the same thing for the USA.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I also understand that Obama is looking at the same thing for the USA.

....but Canada is not the USA, remember ?