Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End

[Keepitsimple]

I agree that its the extremism that must be fought, but even in my conversation with a moderate Muslim from a relatively stable country, he said "The US has created these extremists". If even moderate Muslims think Western intervention is making the situation worse, perhaps that's a message we should take seriously. Although having let the genie out of the bottle, so to speak, I can't see suddenly just everybody packing up and leaving, but surely there is a better option than bombs and drones. Especially when those bombs and drones kill non-combatants.

And therein lies the conumdrum....without some sort of containment force - none of which was forthcoming - ISIS was butchering thousands upon thousands of people - Muslims, Christians and others alike. It was happening unabated and was getting worse. As they say, "evil succeeds when good men do nothing". What a mess.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[dre]

And therein lies the conumdrum....without some sort of containment force - none of which was forthcoming - ISIS was butchering thousands upon thousands of people - Muslims, Christians and others alike. It was happening unabated and was getting worse. As they say, "evil succeeds when good men do nothing". What a mess.

Actually in this case it was "Evil succeeds when stupid men do stupid things".

[G Huxley]

As I said, who knows what Sisi might ultimately do, but at the moment there is a constitution that requires a full democracy be set up and details the steps for doing so. So far, Sisi has championed the constitution in this regard, and proceeded along it's requirements. When my sister said to me that not living there, I couldn't presume to judge Sisi's more extreme actions, she may have had a point. She felt safer when Sisi cracked down on elements he felt were contributing to in-country instability. I don't agree with Sisi's actions in the context of a fully functioning and peaceful democracy, but perhaps in the context of transitioning and with the extreme unrest in the region, my sister is more correct in saying that allowing extremist groups to exist and have a voice is a mistake.

BIL is well aware of Mubarek's 'democracy'; as he said, "I don't need to vote, Mubarek already knows who I'm going to vote for". Perhaps he's being naive with Sisi, but he really seems to believe it will happen.

Also, just because the democracy was 'tribal', doesn't mean it can't work on a bigger scale. And it's not really the West's job to 'transfer' democracy to them; it is their job to decide they want it and work it out from there, in whatever form works the best for them. Tunisia has done it, and it looks like Egypt is at least trying. Afghanistan appears to also have had success at least in terms of electing a president, though how well the country has recovered is debatable. Perhaps SIsi is looking at all these elements and has decided that a strong military oversight is required to ensure the democracy doesn't fail in its early stages.

I can appreciate your tendency to skepticism, but it is starting to look to me as if you are dismissing any signs of progress and effort, preferring instead to believe that democracy cannot happen due to some failing of the people in the region. I can agree that it may not happen but certainly not because people don't want peace and democracy, or don't know what peace and democracy mean.

"Also, just because the democracy was 'tribal', doesn't mean it can't work on a bigger scale. And it's not really the West's job to 'transfer' democracy to them; it is their job to decide they want it and work it out from there, in whatever form works the best for them."

Agreed, but that's exactly what the west doesn't understand.

"I can appreciate your tendency to skepticism, but it is starting to look to me as if you are dismissing any signs of progress and effort, preferring instead to believe that democracy cannot happen due to some failing of the people in the region. I can agree that it may not happen but certainly not because people don't want peace and democracy, or don't know what peace and democracy mean. "

If they believe in it they can demonstrate it. They aren't demonstrating it with very few exceptions. The west doesn't believe in peace either btw and it's claims of believing in democracy are also often pretty dubious.

Edited October 26, 2015 by G Huxley

[BC_chick]

Blaming outsiders for their problems is a very Arab thing, as is a love of conspiracy theories.

Blaming immigrants for their problems is a very xenophobe thing.

If more people understood this - they would know that there are offshoots and niches of supposed "Islamists" who have hijacked the faith in favour of intolerance and violence - and that is why we are in a fight against extremism. Harper and the Conservatives - like myself and any right-thinking person - knew that the battle is not with Muslims - but with those extremists/Fundamentalists who would sully the religion with their archaic intolerance....and I suspect no one hates that more than moderate Muslims. Instead, the opposition chose to paint Harper as divisive - when in fact he has always been bang on. You don't have to dislike Muslims to fight extremism - you just have to know the difference.

Hmmm, I'm sure you mean well, but that is not the way things appeared at all.

Notice how inclusive Trudeau has been with the Muslim community, making sure to let them know that he does not paint them all with the same brush? Harper never did anything like that out of fear of his base (or perhaps his own personal inclinations) and he ended up alienating a very important aspect in fighting terrorism - and that's the participation of moderate Muslims.

Ex-CSIS analyst said so as well: http://www.thetyee.ca/News/2015/10/21/Islamacism-Remarks-Strained-Trust/

[Keepitsimple]

Blaming immigrants for their problems is a very xenophobe thing.

Hmmm, I'm sure you mean well, but that is not the way things appeared at all.

Notice how inclusive Trudeau has been with the Muslim community, making sure to let them know that he does not paint them all with the same brush? Harper never did anything like that out of fear of his base (or perhaps his own personal inclinations) and he ended up alienating a very important aspect in fighting terrorism - and that's the participation of moderate Muslims.

Ex-CSIS analyst said so as well: http://www.thetyee.ca/News/2015/10/21/Islamacism-Remarks-Strained-Trust/

How they "appeared" is more a factor of how they were made to appear......by the media and by the opposition. As "bull in a china shop" as the Conservatives are, do you really think that Harper would want to alienate such a large voting bloc as Muslims? As for Trudeau being inclusive - it's easy to say nice warm, mushy things when you're not in power - when you are not responsible for doing your share of confronting ISIS. Let's see how inclusive and tolerant he is when he actually has to make decisions......... or when he's poked by reporters and goes off-script....

But I digress - we'll just have to wait and see if Trudeau can "make things better".

Edited October 26, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[angrypenguin]

The fact that we are no longer bombing ISIS makes me embarrassed to be Canadian.

[canadaliving]

It's hard to bring people in when we have so many that need help already. it would be better to try and improve the country that people are already living in

[Argus]

Blaming immigrants for their problems is a very xenophobe thing.

And who has done that? Cite please. Clearly you want to fight so back it up or shut up.

[BC_chick]

And who has done that? Cite please. Clearly you want to fight so back it up or shut up.

Certainly never you.

How they "appeared" is more a factor of how they were made to appear......by the media and by the opposition. As "bull in a china shop" as the Conservatives are, do you really think that Harper would want to alienate such a large voting bloc as Muslims? As for Trudeau being inclusive - it's easy to say nice warm, mushy things when you're not in power - when you are not responsible for doing your share of confronting ISIS. Let's see how inclusive and tolerant he is when he actually has to make decisions......... or when he's poked by reporters and goes off-script....

But I digress - we'll just have to wait and see if Trudeau can "make things better".

Harper would never go to a mosque, for example, as Trudeau has done. Of course many (conservative supporters) tried to twist it into something that it wasn't, that Trudeau is pro-terror; but it goes to show the point I was making earlier. Trudeau is much more inclusive and he certainly tries to make Muslims feels like the war on terror is just that, not a war on Muslims.

That attitude will go a lot further in fighting terror than Harper's.

ETA, I actually googled and it appeared he went to a mosque once in 2008. But since then he's been criticized for making a connection between mosques and radicalization so my point still stands.

Edited October 26, 2015 by BC_chick

[Argus]

Certainly never you.

So you can't back up your innuendo?

Harper would never go to a mosque, for example, as Trudeau has done.

What sort of blind ignorance is that? How can you even post something that stupid without the elementary precaution of googling it?

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2008/07/05/prime-minister-harper-attends-opening-baitun-nur-ahmadiyya-mosque

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/28/harper-delivers-speech-at-canadas-largest-national-islamic-convention

Of course many (conservative supporters) tried to twist it into something that it wasn't, that Trudeau is pro-terror;

Not because Trudeau went to a mosque but because he went to THAT mosque, one which had connections to radicalism.

Trudeau is much more inclusive and he certainly tries to make Muslims feels like the war on terror is just that, not a war on Muslims.

Harper told a Toronto-area Muslim event last night that non-Muslim Canadians needed to hear from their Muslim neighbours that Islam is a force for peace and not something to be feared.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-thanks-muslims-for-condemning-recent-soldier-attacks-1.2861411

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/harper-condemns-heinous-attacks-on-gatineau-mosque/article620536/

ETA, I actually googled and it appeared he went to a mosque once in 2008. But since then he's been criticized for making a connection between mosques and radicalization so my point still stands.

Wow. That's lame. So he went to a mosque, and had good things to say about Muslims but 'he's been criticized' for echoing what the security services have said about the dangers of some mosques encouraging radicalization. PHhht.

[hitops]

Harper would never go to a mosque, for example, as Trudeau has done. Of course many (conservative supporters) tried to twist it into something that it wasn't, that Trudeau is pro-terror; but it goes to show the point I was making earlier. Trudeau is much more inclusive and he certainly tries to make Muslims feels like the war on terror is just that...

Ok but he doesn't want to do that either, since he is pulling the jets out.

Trudeau promises sunshine, baby puppies and happiness. But reality is different. Taking in people from warzone means you get the good with the bad. We are no longer living in the world of firmly defined cold war boundaries where you can be confident of who you are getting. Hardened ISIS fighters will get in. No screening process will ever be able to keep them out. A nice Canadian smile and a handshake and Trudeau gazing into their eyes will not transform somebody who's life philosophy is that you should be killed, into a life-affirming tolerant Canadian.

The only way to reasonably generalize about who is being persecuted and who is doing the persecuting, is to focus on minority groups. Even then, it would be hard to figure out if an ISIS fighter is simply posing as a persecuted Kurd, for example.

Edited October 26, 2015 by hitops

[BC_chick]

So you can't back up your innuendo?

What sort of blind ignorance is that? How can you even post something that stupid without the elementary precaution of googling it?

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2008/07/05/prime-minister-harper-attends-opening-baitun-nur-ahmadiyya-mosque

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/28/harper-delivers-speech-at-canadas-largest-national-islamic-convention

Not because Trudeau went to a mosque but because he went to THAT mosque, one which had connections to radicalism.

Harper told a Toronto-area Muslim event last night that non-Muslim Canadians needed to hear from their Muslim neighbours that Islam is a force for peace and not something to be feared.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-thanks-muslims-for-condemning-recent-soldier-attacks-1.2861411

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/harper-condemns-heinous-attacks-on-gatineau-mosque/article620536/

Wow. That's lame. So he went to a mosque, and had good things to say about Muslims but 'he's been criticized' for echoing what the security services have said about the dangers of some mosques encouraging radicalization. PHhht.

For someone who is whining in Support about how rude and abrasive the 'left' is, you sure are being a jerk here. Is there really a need to talk down to me like this? Let your argument speak for itself without being so condescending.

I'm not even going to bother responding to this tripe.

[BC_chick]

Ok but he doesn't want to do that either, since he is pulling the jets out.

Trudeau promises sunshine, baby puppies and happiness. But reality is different. Taking in people from warzone means you get the good with the bad. We are no longer living in the world of firmly defined cold war boundaries where you can be confident of who you are getting. Hardened ISIS fighters will get in. No screening process will ever be able to keep them out. A nice Canadian smile and a handshake and Trudeau gazing into their eyes will not transform somebody who's life philosophy is that you should be killed, into a life-affirming tolerant Canadian.

The only way to reasonably generalize about who is being persecuted and who is doing the persecuting, is to focus on minority groups. Even then, it would be hard to figure out if an ISIS fighter is simply posing as a persecuted Kurd, for example.

Fighting ISIS in a war-zone is one thing but I'm talking about the Muslim community in Canada. They are more collaborative if they are not made to feel like they are all up to no good. Trudeau is doing a way better job of making the Muslim community feel like equal citizens than Harper ever did.

I saw a viral facebook post from a Muslim woman with a picture of Trudeau at some Islamic event and in her caption she was saying how nice it is to have a prime-minister who doesn't make her feel like a terrorist just because of the religion she worships. As much as I am against religion, I totally get what she meant.

[hitops]

Fighting ISIS in a war-zone is one thing but I'm talking about the Muslim community in Canada. They are more collaborative if they are not made to feel like they are all up to no good. Trudeau is doing a way better job of making the Muslim community feel like equal citizens than Harper ever did.

I saw a viral facebook post from a Muslim woman with a picture of Trudeau at some Islamic event and in her caption she was saying how nice it is to have a prime-minister who doesn't make her feel like a terrorist just because of the religion she worships. As much as I am against religion, I totally get what she meant.

Without a doubt he is doing better at making people feel included. The fact is that the life of the prophet Mohammed looks more like the life of an ISIS leader than any typical Muslim in Canada. It is good that most Muslims just want to live peaceful lives. They don't want to face that they are living a watered-down westernized pseudo-version of Islam that has never existed in history until the last 30-40 years or so.

But many Muslims are going to want to follow the real-deal, prophet-emulating authentic version, like ISIS does. We should to make sure we do not get these ones.

[Argus]

For someone who is whining in Support about how rude and abrasive the 'left' is, you sure are being a jerk here. Is there really a need to talk down to me like this? Let your argument speak for itself without being so condescending.

Your points provoke condescension since they arise out of pure blind partisanship, and I'm still waiting for you to back up your slur about my blaming immigrants for my problems.

And quit whining about you getting the same attitude you gave me.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Argus

[poochy]

For someone who is whining in Support about how rude and abrasive the 'left' is, you sure are being a jerk here. Is there really a need to talk down to me like this? Let your argument speak for itself without being so condescending.

I'm not even going to bother responding to this tripe.

The obvious difference being that you were wrong, that you were making things up, and you were caught, which is something that happens often to your side of this argument, but of course you are supposed to be able to make things up with impunity, while everyone else is supposed to be nice about the mistruths you repeat. Right, this is why we have a liberal government today, their leader might have proven himself over and over to be a boob, but he promises to be nice, and a nice, child like PM is better than one that tells you things you don't want to hear, correctness is irrelevant.

[Argus]

Fighting ISIS in a war-zone is one thing but I'm talking about the Muslim community in Canada. They are more collaborative if they are not made to feel like they are all up to no good. Trudeau is doing a way better job of making the Muslim community feel like equal citizens than Harper ever did.

I saw a viral facebook post from a Muslim woman with a picture of Trudeau at some Islamic event and in her caption she was saying how nice it is to have a prime-minister who doesn't make her feel like a terrorist just because of the religion she worships. As much as I am against religion, I totally get what she meant.

In all likelihood the next Tory leader will not be as fixated with supporting Israel as Harper was. And if he's got the political savvy of, say, Jason Kenney, will tone down the security rhetoric. That will leave the way open for the Muslim community to flow en masse to the Conservatives, which is their rightful home. Maybe Harper's position on Israel and security turned off some, but Muslims will likely be eager for a more neutral Conservative rather than the gay loving, abortion loving, prostitute loving, pot loving Trudeau.

[BC_chick]

Making stuff up? My own ETA at the end my post mentioned the 2008 visit to a mosque.

And I told you I'm done discussing things with you because your tone is condescending and you can't make your argument without bringing me and my character into it.

[BC_chick]

The obvious difference being that you were wrong, that you were making things up, and you were caught, which is something that happens often to your side of this argument, but of course you are supposed to be able to make things up with impunity, while everyone else is supposed to be nice about the mistruths you repeat. Right, this is why we have a liberal government today, their leader might have proven himself over and over to be a boob, but he promises to be nice, and a nice, child like PM is better than one that tells you things you don't want to hear, correctness is irrelevant.

Read to the end of my post. My own ETA acknowledged the 2008 visit. I could've retracted the whole thing but I left it in and simply edited it. Not my problem you didn't read to the end.

[Argus]

And I told you I'm done discussing things with you because your tone is condescending and you can't make your argument without bringing me and my character into it.

Why should he? You don't.

[Keepitsimple]

Making stuff up? My own ETA at the end my post mentioned the 2008 visit to a mosque.

He hasn't gone to many Churches or Sinogogues either......but he was invited back to that same Mosque in April of this year.....

[On Guard for Thee]

The fact that we are no longer bombing ISIS makes me embarrassed to be Canadian.

The fact we ow have a leader who is intelligent enough to see how ineffectual our silly little campaign is, and has been, makes me proud to be Canadian.

[BC_chick]

He hasn't gone to many Churches or Sinogogues either......but he was invited back to that same Mosque in April of this year.....

The point we were talking about was how Trudeau has been more inclusive of the Muslim community. I brought up the mosque issue because so many people called him a terrorist for going to a mosque.

I double-checked after and saw that Harper did something similar 7 years ago and instead of deleting my post I edited it. The fact still remains that Trudeau has said nothing inflammatory about Muslims and he has gone out of his way to include them.

Harper alienated the Muslim community with the niqab stance, the suggestion that mosques breed terrorists and by not going to a mosque (*during this election campaign*) and rubbing elbows with Muslims the way JT did.

Many conservative analysts and posters here are saying the same thing, I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that Harper was warm to Muslims or anywhere near as inclusive as JT was.

Edited October 26, 2015 by BC_chick

[dialamah]

. The fact is that the life of the prophet Mohammed looks more like the life of an ISIS leader than any typical Muslim in Canada.

It seems he was only 'at war' for 10 years of his life, so for about 50 years he wasn't at war. It seems war happened more because he and his followers were persecuted to the point where in order to survive, they began raiding caravans, which led to retaliation, which led to more retaliation, which led to war. Or something like that.

In any case, it seems doubtful that prophet Muhammed was anything like ISIS. ISIS has nothing to do with what Islam teaches as a religion, just as people who commit mass murders "because God told them to" have anything to do with what Christianity teaches.

[Keepitsimple]

The point we were talking about was how Trudeau has been more inclusive of the Muslim community. I brought up the mosque issue because so many people called him a terrorist for going to a mosque.

I double-checked after and saw that Harper did something similar 7 years ago and instead of deleting my post I edited it. The fact still remains that Trudeau has said nothing inflammatory about Muslims and he has gone out of his way to include them.

Harper alienated the Muslim community with the niqab stance, the suggestion that mosques breed terrorists and by not going to a mosque (*during this election campaign*) and rubbing elbows with Muslims the way JT did.

Many conservative analysts and posters here are saying the same thing, I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that Harper was warm to Muslims or anywhere near as inclusive as JT was.

You may prove to be right - but keep in mind that Trudeau has never been in power so it's easy to sound "inclusive". He has a track record of being impulsive so let's see how inclusive he is when events overtake him and the pressure is on. As Mr. Spock once said on Star Trek: "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.