On changing how Canadians vote

waldo · May 12, 2016

Yes, yes. Of course we must go through the proper motions, but we all know that ranked ballots has already been selected as the system most likely to benefit the Liberal party, and therefore, in their eyes, the obvious answer.

citation request

by the by, as far as the ranked ballots option, are you implying a significant number of Canadians would not hold the Conservatives as either their first or second choices on a ballot? Is that what you're saying - is that what you're concerned about? I've not seen anything to suggest your concern has merit - I'm not challenging whether that's the case... I'd just like to have you confirm it with a suitable reference supporting it - yes?

.

overthere · May 12, 2016

We have the best country in the world and we have the best system for voting, why do people want to bring our country down to the level of the failed states that use that system now. Is it too keep trudeau in power for ever?

In a word, yes. It scared the s++t out of the Liberals to not be in power for ten years. Ranked ballots are an easy way to get re elected indefinitely.

With the farce of a preloaded Parliamentary committee now underway, the refusal to actually consult Canadians via referendum, and of course the goofy pretense of the Senate appointment committee is motion- Trudeau has lined up all the Dynasty Ducks.

Grab some popcorn folks, it is time for Kabuki Theater on the Rideau to begin. There will be lights, fog machines, costumes and plenty of florid language- more than enough for everybody! Don't worry if you miss an episode or two, because I will ruin the Season and Series Finale for you: it is going to be ranked ballots. In the meantime kids, lets pretend there are other options!!!

Edited May 12, 2016 by overthere

waldo · May 12, 2016

... the refusal to actually consult Canadians via referendum

again, you doth protest too much, methinks! Did you also raise your ire in regards the Harper Conservative's "Unfair Elections Act"?

if you're correct, if... if the majority of Canadians don't hold Conservatives as either their first or second choice ballot options, just what does that say... to you, hey?

.

-1=e^ipi · May 12, 2016

ya ya, Rona has really been beating that referendum-drum... hey didja know, traditionally, referendum's bring forward the status-quo...hmmm! By the by, was there a referendum when Harper Conservatives brought forward their "Unfair Elections Act", hey?

Pretty sure Mulcair wanted a referendum too.

-1=e^ipi · May 12, 2016

We have the best country in the world and we have the best system for voting, why do people want to bring our country down to the level of the failed states that use that system now. Is it too keep trudeau in power for ever?

New Zealand is a failed state?

-1=e^ipi · May 12, 2016

Yes, yes. Of course we must go through the proper motions, but we all know that ranked ballots has already been selected as the system most likely to benefit the Liberal party, and therefore, in their eyes, the obvious answer.

They might go with P3, just to maintain the illusion of a fair system.

overthere · May 12, 2016

New Zealand is a failed state?

The United Kingdom, United States, Canada and the largest democracy in the world(India) all use FPTP. Yes, they are all failed states too. They must be.

Edited May 12, 2016 by overthere

-1=e^ipi · May 12, 2016

I never claimed that UK, US or Canada are failed states. Strawman argument.

Though, Canada is starting to look like it is heading towards one to be honest.

waldo · May 12, 2016

Pretty sure Mulcair wanted a referendum too.

pretty sure he didn't... not when he came forward and outright promised an electoral reform change to 'proportional representation' if the NDP were to be elected in 2015

.

overthere · May 12, 2016

They might go with P3, just to maintain the illusion of a fair system.

You really need to drop the fantasy that any form of proportional representaion will happen in the 'electoral reform' process.

Here is why it will not happen: Liberal minorities, at best. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever the Liberals would risk that. None. It does happen to be on Waldos Silly List of Supposed Alternatives, but there is no way.

waldo · May 12, 2016

The United Kingdom, United States, Canada and the largest democracy in the world(India) all use FPTP. Yes, they are all failed states too. They must be.

oh my! Clearly, FPTP has significant related problems/issues... but ya ya, if it's good enough for Liberia, for Nigeria, for Ethiopia, for Yemen... Didja see what I did there, didja catch it? :lol:

.

waldo · May 12, 2016

Waldos Silly List of Supposed Alternatives

be stronger than your butthurt... not my list... see cited linkee in the original post for reference purposes.

.

Smallc · May 12, 2016

I never claimed that UK, US or Canada are failed states. Strawman argument.

Though, Canada is starting to look like it is heading towards one to be honest.

Yeah, Canada is doing terribly :rolleyes:

dre · May 12, 2016

Anyone who doesn't think their votes would be far more important than whatever people in widely dispersed regions want or think or do or say is kidding themselves. The biggest victims of this would likely be the Atlantic provinces, who would, for all intents and purposes, pretty much cease to exist as far as the parties are concerned. Basically it would be southern Ontario and southern Quebec and greater Vancouver, and screw everyone else.

Well you could set it up wrong maybe.... But a more representative electoral system isn't "screwing" anyone.

Argus · May 12, 2016

Yeah, Canada is doing terribly

It must be. That's why we need radical changes to how government gets elected. Right?

Smallc · May 12, 2016

It must be. That's why we need radical changes to how government gets elected. Right?

I'm not necessarily in favour of changing the electoral system. I certainly don't see it as a pressing issue. At the same time, I understand the complaints about our current system.

Argus · May 12, 2016

I'm not necessarily in favour of changing the electoral system. I certainly don't see it as a pressing issue. At the same time, I understand the complaints about our current system.

Do you understand why those complaints were largely non-existent until Harper got elected?

Smallc · May 12, 2016

Do you understand why those complaints were largely non-existent until Harper got elected?

The complaints have actually been building for several years. It's already come up more than once at the provincial level.

Argus · May 12, 2016

The complaints have actually been building for several years. It's already come up more than once at the provincial level.

There have always been minor complaints. They didn't really 'build up' until the conservatives got elected. Only then did they become of overriding importance to the progressive set.

Not, of course, to anyone else, which is why the Liberals don't dare offer a referendum. Because they know they'd lose.

Smallc · May 12, 2016

There have always been minor complaints. They didn't really 'build up' until the conservatives got elected. Only then did they become of overriding importance to the progressive set.

I don't really agree with your assessment.

Not, of course, to anyone else, which is why the Liberals don't dare offer a referendum. Because they know they'd lose.

A referendum would do little, and is almost always a terrible idea. The uninformed masses will have their say in other ways.

Argus · May 12, 2016

I don't really agree with your assessment.

A referendum would do little, and is almost always a terrible idea. The uninformed masses will have their say in other ways.

The same uninformed masses who elected your party?

Have you considered the hypocrisy of taking a position that we must change the way we elect MPs in order to more accurately reflect the will of the people while at the same time dismissing the will of the people because they're 'uninformed masses'?

Edited May 12, 2016 by Argus

Smallc · May 12, 2016

The same uninformed masses who elected your party?

I don't really have a party - but I did vote Liberal this time. So far, I see no reason not to support the government. I give the people credit for being smart in the macro. In the micro, on specific issues, they're idiots.

Have you considered the hypocrisy of taking a position that we must change the way we elect MPs in order to more accurately reflect the will of the people while at the same time dismissing the will of the people because they're 'uninformed masses'?

I don't think I've seen anyone take that position.

Argus · May 12, 2016

I don't think I've seen anyone take that position.

Oh excuse me. Then your position is that changing the way we elect MPs isn't a pressing issue, but if other Canadians feel the same way well, that's not important because they're idiots?

Smallc · May 12, 2016

Oh excuse me. Then your position is that changing the way we elect MPs isn't a pressing issue, but if other Canadians feel the same way well, that's not important because they're idiots?

My position is that I don't see a pressing need for change, but the majority of the electorate voted for parties that want change. I give the electorate credit for that. I don't give them credit for understanding the minutia of the different systems.

scribblet · May 12, 2016

The evidence which illustrates the illusion of the Liberals "putting partisanship aside" came in the House of Commons, where Elizabeth May asked PM Trudeau if he was going to whip the members of the committee to vote a Liberal party line.
Trudeau's response: "I can assure the Leader of the Green Party that I will no more control the Liberal members on that committee than she will control the Green member on that committee."

If they were truly committed to a fair and open process they would not keep a Liberal dominated committee… They stacked the committee using the same system which allows that, but a system they say they now view as illegitimate.