Wynne sells a Telcom at a Loss

[Scotty]

So you're saying you expected the civil servants "whose wages you pay" to decide on their own to sell it for $1 to Bell and you would've been OK? The new paradigm is to pay consultants and hide behind their skirt for tough decisions.......as the paying mob won't take it.

So cowardice is the new paradigm? And you're saying this is what you approve of?

[Guest]

When facing fiber and equipment upgrades for a geographically large but sparsely populated region maybe it is cheaper to sell the company at a loss.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Guest

[Topaz]

IN my view, Hydro One sale, we only have to really worry if 6 individual wind companies buy the 60% shares up for sale.

[GostHacked]

The first plant cancellation was done a full year prior to the election... the second, yes, within the campaign itself. A billion dollars was saved in the cancellation of those Oakville and Mississauga plants... a half-billion sunk costs were paid to the 2 contractors involved for the monies already put into the 2 cancelled plants. There was an extra cost of $60 million for the new/alternate Lambton plant and a claimed extra cost for the Napanee plant of ~800 million... a figure I interpret as associating to the additional costs to bring gas there and transmit electricity where needed most. Of course, "fun with figures" relative to bringing those new plants to alternate 'rural' based areas: as I interpret, those additional Napanee costs don't factor such things as spin-offs to the related rural economy... like 600 construction jobs, 25 permanent jobs, and millions of dollars spent during years of construction. Notwithstanding your zeal in wanting to force 'residential areas' to accept gas plants in their immediate proximity... what would member Boges have done?

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The notion of saving a billion dollars while spending over 2 Billion (by your numbers) and nothing was built is completely absurd.

[waldo]

The notion of saving a billion dollars while spending over 2 Billion (by your numbers) and nothing was built is completely absurd.

perhaps you should re-read it; by your assessment... it's absurd... completely absurd... for critics to then include projected costs for those same proposed alternate plants.

[Ash74]

perhaps you should re-read it; by your assessment... it's absurd... completely absurd... for critics to then include projected costs for those same proposed alternate plants.

Not nearly as absurd as you defending the Liberals for cancelling the plants all for the sake of a few seats at Queens Park.

If this had been a Conservative decision you would have been filling this forum complaining as the rest of us are.

[waldo]

Not nearly as absurd as you defending the Liberals for cancelling the plants all for the sake of a few seats at Queens Park.

If this had been a Conservative decision you would have been filling this forum complaining as the rest of us are.

or to what degree was it a response to a large protest block of affected residents directly impacted... reflective of poor initial siting decisions made vis-a-vis low/sparsely populated rural versus dense/large populated urban?

[Ash74]

or to what degree was it a response to a large protest block of affected residents directly impacted... reflective of poor initial siting decisions made vis-a-vis low/sparsely populated rural versus dense/large populated urban?

So for sake of argument let us say that it had nothing to do with the seats involved. (this is a lie but Liberals do not worry about such things)

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/02/28/wynne_admits_scrapping_gas_plants_was_political_decision.html

It was still a mistake to start to build the plants there so that was a waste of tax dollars and saved the people of Ontario nothing plus the added burden of higher hydro rates that really hurt the lower income earners.

So here you are defending an incident that even the present leaders of the same party have admitted that it was a political move to save seats.

[waldo]

So here you are defending an incident that even the present leaders of the same party have admitted that it was a political move to save seats.

defending? No - I'm adding the missing perspective on actual costs... I'm addressing the main driver related to the initial siting decisions. Also the timeline and related aspects, particularly those inconvenient to the Opposition parties: in that regard, the cancellation of one of those plants (Oakville) occurred a full year before the election... the other proposed plant closing (Mississauga) had the prior support of both the Conservatives and the NDP.

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[Ash74]

defending? No - I'm adding the missing perspective on actual costs... I'm addressing the main driver related to the initial siting decisions. Also the timeline and related aspects, particularly those inconvenient to the Opposition parties: in that regard, the cancellation of one of those plants (Oakville) occurred a full year before the election... the other proposed plant closing (Mississauga) had the prior support of both the Conservatives and the NDP.

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You mean the two other parties that were not the ones that put the gas plants there?

And how much did the conservatives and the NDP pay to erase the files from the system?

Of course the Liberals paid the money back after it was exposed but I am sure the Liberals would have paid that back on their own.

[waldo]

how completely self-serving to simply dismiss the fact the other 2 Opposition parties were (also) in favour of closing the Mississauga plant! You've derailed this thread quite well - perhaps you should take it to a related thread, hey!

[Ash74]

So about erasing the emails?

Ok fine.

The Ontario Liberals have a history for spending money poorly.

I for one would have felt alot better if the Liberals had sold the telecom for a dollar and not had the consultants. In the end the people of Ontario would have been further ahead.

This is just another of the long line of poor decisions that has been going on since 2003.

It is alright Waldo. I understand. You can lie to us just don't lie to yourself.

[waldo]

I for one would have felt alot better if the Liberals had sold the telecom for a dollar and not had the consultants. In the end the people of Ontario would have been further ahead.

This is just another of the long line of poor decisions that has been going on since 2003.

It is alright Waldo. I understand. You can lie to us just don't lie to yourself.

your naivety in how real-world negotiations are done is noted... perhaps have a read of the earlier posts within the thread where MLW member 'Boges' tried this same failed ploy. Certainly, running an ad in Kijiji, one offering a diminishing asset, one technologically leveraged/tied, in a sparsely populated and remote area... offering it for $1... that certainly would solicit a thundering avalanche of perspective legitimate buyers!

your closing personalization is a real bruiser... you, you, you brute you!

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[Boges]

Ahhhh yes and paying more for consultants than the sale price and having a sale price 10% of the value of the company was a good thing for the Ontario taxpayer.

I'm curious a scenario where that deal would have been worse for Ontario.

[Ash74]

perhaps you should re-read it; by your assessment... it's absurd... completely absurd... for critics to then include projected costs for those same proposed alternate plants.

I did read it. I thought it was just a long winded excuse for the failures of this government.

I did agree that the consultants were likely brought in to cover up the yet another "boondoggle" that is getting to be more and more common.

But justify away if it makes you happy

[GostHacked]

perhaps you should re-read it; by your assessment... it's absurd... completely absurd... for critics to then include projected costs for those same proposed alternate plants.

It's equally absurd. Now we are down a couple power plants, while the others are cancelled. All that money spent and we have a net loss of power plants. Putting more strain on the other stations. Can the supply keep up with the demand?

Now the company will go private, the rates will go up, and taxpayers are stuck with the loss while paying more for the power generation. I don't care if it was Liberals or Conservatives, this is a great example of terrible governance.

[Topaz]

First of all, I think any party in power going into an election would probably did what the liberals did, listen to the voters in that area BUT, why was it put there in the first place if the people didn't want it there? I don't know the background on the gas plants. So, in Ontario, we do have the liberals that over spend, the PC that cut too deep, so where does that leave the NDP? Remember, the NDP have only had one shot at it compare to the other two, which makes Ontario what it is today good and bad.

[waldo]

Ahhhh yes and paying more for consultants than the sale price and having a sale price 10% of the value of the company was a good thing for the Ontario taxpayer.

I'm curious a scenario where that deal would have been worse for Ontario.

you're simply repeating yourself... again, there is little return from a smallish company with a limited population growth base in a location remotely compromised... one subject to significant technology/infrastructure requirements.

[waldo]

I did agree that the consultants were likely brought in to cover up the yet another "boondoggle" that is getting to be more and more common.

But justify away if it makes you happy

no - consultants were relied upon as equivalent expertise doesn't exist within the government... you know, the thing consultants bring to the table... the thing many corporations don't include as a part of their core business requirement and rely upon outsourcing as needed. But hey, whatever justification makes you happy.

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[waldo]

It's equally absurd. Now we are down a couple power plants, while the others are cancelled. All that money spent and we have a net loss of power plants. Putting more strain on the other stations. Can the supply keep up with the demand?

my understanding is demand is being met quite adequately... the new plants will be online prior to any compromise concern. Perhaps you could step beyond your obvious speculation and unsubstantiated implications.

[GostHacked]

my understanding is demand is being met quite adequately... the new plants will be online prior to any compromise concern. Perhaps you could step beyond your obvious speculation and unsubstantiated implications.

Giving away public utilities at a net loss to a private business for Canadian taxpayers is dumb no matter how you look at it. Yay we only wasted 2 billion instead of 3 billion, bang up job there.

[Scotty]

Ontario's budget watchdog says the sale of Hydro One will cost the province $500 million per year. Another brilliant move by the Liberals to drive the province's finances into the ground.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/hydro-one-could-cost-ontario-500-million-a-year-in-lost-revenues-budget-watchdog

[Ash74]

When you have the Toronto Star saying this is a bad idea we are going to have a problem here.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2015/10/30/ontario-government-should-put-plan-to-sell-off-hydro-one-on-hold-editorial.html

This is a newspaper that bleeds Liberal red. I do not think I have ever seen so many people from so many different political views agree on something but here it is.

Sure there maybe one or two that will try and justify it out of some sense of loyalty but other than that I have yet to read that this is a good idea with the exception of the current Liberal government who has never failed to screw something up when given half a chance.

The only good thing about this hydro sale is it will knock off the selling of the 407 as the dumbest move the Ontario Government has done.