Gender-Sex Categories

[BC_chick]

What exactly is required to live as a self declared transgender? Seems to me they could just carry on as they always did and simply insist they are woman when asked. Do you have a book of rules for living as a transgender?

Me, no, I don't have any rules on what defines a man or woman. The government does though.

[BC_chick]

Yes, now. Note the topics being discussed in this thread are changes in how things are now.

Got it. CC's claim to get rid of sex completely. I think we have a pretty long way to go before sex is completely written off and if it comes sooner than later, then I agree, we have to get rid of anything gender-based since it's a moot issue.

[TimG]

Me, no, I don't have any rules on what defines a man or woman. The government does though.

You seem to have lost the point of the thread. My argument is the government needs to have objective criteria to determine gender (reproductive organs, chromosomes, et. al.). Some people objected. I am simply pointing out the consequences of making gender a 'personal choice'. The only counter argument is the naive assertion that no one would lie about their gender to access money.

[BC_chick]

You seem to have lost the point of the thread. My argument is the government needs to have objective criteria to determine gender (reproductive organs, chromosomes, et. al.). Some people objected. I am simply pointing out the consequences of making gender a 'personal choice'. The only counter argument is the naive assertion that no one would lie about their gender to access money.

Yes, my bad. See my previous post. I don't agree with CC on this issue.

Edited August 24, 2015 by BC_chick

[TimG]

I agree, we have to get rid of anything gender-based since it's a moot issue.

It also means an end to discussion of discrimination against women or the gender wage gap or hand wringing about gender imbalances in different job categories. Are you prepared to give that up along with the elimination of any official recognition of gender?

[BC_chick]

It also means an end to discussion of discrimination against women or the gender wage gap or hand wringing about gender imbalances in different job categories. Are you prepared to give that up along with the elimination of any official recognition of gender?

I don't want to get rid of gender.

[TimG]

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Edited August 24, 2015 by TimG

[BC_chick]

Did you change your mind from when you said:

Or did I misunderstand you?

I think we're cross-posting and I added to the confusion because I did not respond to Bonam in the right context and I have since clarified my position.

In that quote, I was responding to Bonam that I don't think the day is coming any time soon that gender is gone and *IF* that day comes sooner than later, then I agree that gender-based programs would be a moot point.

In between these posts I also said I don't agree with CC on the issue of getting rid of gender completely.

[Bonam]

I think we're cross-posting and I added to the confusion because I did not respond to Bonam in the right context and I have since clarified my position.

In that quote, I was responding to Bonam that I don't think the day is coming any time soon that gender is gone and *IF* that day comes sooner than later, then I agree that gender-based programs would be a moot point.

Agreed, I think it probably will be a while too. And it probably won't be social change that gets us there, but technological change...

[-1=e^ipi]

As in, I highly doubt there is going to be a lot of boys who are willing to turn their lives upside down pretending to be transgender (hence, living in drag) just so they can get a scholarship.

A more interesting question might be why gender-specific scholarships are overwhelmingly female when over 60% of university students are female? Boys are falling behind but society doesn't care. Because society gender roles are such that only women can have problems and men need to 'man up', 'grow balls' and never complain about issues facing them.

[-1=e^ipi]

It also means an end to discussion of discrimination against women or the gender wage gap or hand wringing about gender imbalances in different job categories. Are you prepared to give that up along with the elimination of any official recognition of gender?

The gender wage gap all but disappears once you account for various factors such as hours worked, experience, education, type of occupation, etc. In countries like Canada, USA and UK it favours women for people in urban areas below 30. The reason you see politicians like Trudeau and Obama go on about the 77% wage gap is because they used outdated data and don't take anything into account (they just divide total earnings of each gender). But since our society is gynocentrist, they aren't called out on it since doing so would make you appear 'anti-women'.

Edited August 24, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[-1=e^ipi]

Agreed, I think it probably will be a while too.

You say that yet women have a 2:1 hiring advantage in STEM fields.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/14/study-finds-surprisingly-that-women-are-favored-for-jobs-in-stem/

Society has long since passed the point where the 'men are privileged, women are oppressed' narrative makes any sense. We live in a highly gynocentric society where it is taboo to discuss men's issues (to the point where doing so publically will result in death threats, bomb threats, assault attempts, disrupting events by pulling fire-alarms and people blockading people others from hearing the opinions of men's rights activists at our universities).

Go to 2:11 to see the horrible 'misogynists' that wish to hear men's rights issues discussed:

Edited August 24, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[BC_chick]

A more interesting question might be why gender-specific scholarships are overwhelmingly female when over 60% of university students are female? Boys are falling behind but society doesn't care. Because society gender roles are such that only women can have problems and men need to 'man up', 'grow balls' and never complain about issues facing them.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you post this before and you've been given the same response in the past, and if Charles Anthony doesn't mind you drifting your own thread - I think the discrepancy in numbers has to do with boys being less interested in University because they have more high-earning vocational options than women.

As for why we have women scholarships, I don't agree with the idea unless it's a field where one gender is specifically under-represented.

[-1=e^ipi]

So you don't think it has anything to do with how boys are treated by the school system or the university incentives?

If we have all these initiatives to 'empower' girls and tell them to do well in university, have various groups that try to encourage girls to get a good education, and have lots of female only scholarships, is it any surprise women now outnumber men in universities by over a 2 to 1 ratio? Maybe we should encourage boys to get a good education as well...

Anyway, I'm going a bit off topic.

[cybercoma]

Depends on the amount of economic benefits to gain. The greater the benefit the greater number of 'intersex/two-spirited' transgender will appear. In the end, it will become impossible offer gender based programs without deliberately discriminating against transgender that do not have objective evidence to support the claimed gender.

The programs exist. How many "frauds" are there? You're making the claim. Show me proof that it's the huge problem that you're making it out to be.

[cybercoma]

Got it. CC's claim to get rid of sex completely. I think we have a pretty long way to go before sex is completely written off and if it comes sooner than later, then I agree, we have to get rid of anything gender-based since it's a moot issue.

i didn't say anything about getting rid of anything gender based. I said remove gender from government ID per the OP.

[cybercoma]

In between these posts I also said I don't agree with CC on the issue of getting rid of gender completely.

Not once have I said this.

[TimG]

The programs exist. How many "frauds" are there? You're making the claim. Show me proof that it's the huge problem that you're making it out to be.

As I said: it is likely not a big issue today because people know their official gender on government ID and realize they could be easily found out. However, if gender is removed from ID or if gender can be changed on a whim then this avenue for fraud will become plausible (technically it would not even be fraud in legal sense because gender would be self-defined) and the amount of fraud will depend on the economic incentives (i.e. the greater the incentive - the greater the fraud). It is naive to assume otherwise. Edited August 24, 2015 by TimG

[Black Dog]

Society has long since passed the point where the 'men are privileged, women are oppressed' narrative makes any sense. We live in a highly gynocentric society where it is taboo to discuss men's issues (to the point where doing so publically will result in death threats, bomb threats, assault attempts, disrupting events by pulling fire-alarms and people blockading people others from hearing the opinions of men's rights activists at our universities).

That's because, as we've discussed before, the main thrust of the men's rights movement as we know it is not men's rights, but anti-feminist/anti-woman (as the death threats, bomb threats, doxxing etc experienced by people like Anita Sarkesian show).

Maybe if all the prominent MRAs weren't gross turds (and I'd include Warren "date rape is exciting" Farrrell in there), these issues would get more traction, but it's kinda hard to see past dumb ish like the claim we live in a "highly gynocentric society," which is clearly false given your other statements on the nature of social gender roles (such as "gender roles are such that only women can have problems and men need to 'man up', 'grow balls' and never complain about issues facing them.")

[-1=e^ipi]

That's because, as we've discussed before, the main thrust of the men's rights movement as we know it is not men's rights, but anti-feminist/anti-woman (as the death threats, bomb threats, doxxing etc experienced by people like Anita Sarkesian show).

You are generalizing a very large and diverse group of people based on the actions of a few. It's like saying all muslims are terrorists because ISIS. Not only that, but a lot of this so called harassment done by MRAs is done by internet trolls. Plus people that support men's rights get their share of bomb threats, doxing, etc. Milo Yiannopoulos received a syringe, a dead animal and a bloody razor blade in the mail for example.

Edited August 24, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[Black Dog]

You are generalizing a very large and diverse group of people based on the actions of a few. It's like saying all muslims are terrorists because ISIS.

"A few" who just happen to be the people at the forefront of the movement and who set the tone for others to follow. Like Farrell, like Paul Elam, like Karen Straughn etc .(none of whom are saying anything about men's issues that hasn't already been said by feminists decades ago)..

Not only that, but a lot of this so called harassment done by MRAs is done by internet trolls.

So an internet troll can't be an MRA? No True Scotsman...?

Plus people that support men's rights get their share of bomb threats, doxing, etc. Milo Yiannopoulos received a syringe, a dead animal and a bloody razor blade in the mail for example.

Don't forget several dozen rolls of toilet paper (because he's a turd, you see).

Since you brought him up, he's a perfect example of what I'm talking about: a nobody "journalist" who hates games and gaming who jumped on the GG bandwagon to further his own anti-feminist agenda. If you're so concerned about how men's issues aren't getting enough attention, take a look at who is carrying the torch and what they are spending their energy on.

[-1=e^ipi]

So an internet troll can't be an MRA? No True Scotsman...?

Of course an internet troll can be an MRA. Just not all internet trolls are MRAs and if you see an internet troll, you can't tell if it's an MRA or not.

[Moonlight Graham]

What is a "gender-sex" category. There's 2 categories, sex and gender. Each are completely distinct. I can be male sex but female gender, or any other kind of gender.

I agree with TimG, government only needs to know biological sex.

[cybercoma]

What is a "gender-sex" category. There's 2 categories, sex and gender. Each are completely distinct. I can be male sex but female gender, or any other kind of gender.

I agree with TimG, government only needs to know biological sex.

Not even biological sex is binary. Nor is it necessarily as important as gender.

[-1=e^ipi]

What is a "gender-sex" category. There's 2 categories, sex and gender. Each are completely distinct. I can be male sex but female gender, or any other kind of gender.

Well I argue that genetic sex and phenotypical sex are distinct as well.