Canada's pre-jet-age immigration policies need a major overhaul.

[Second-class Canadian]

Canada's pre-jet-age immigration policies need a major overhaul.

Having been in a courtship for the last year now, I can say that whoever wrote Canada's immigration policy was completely out of touch with the reality of relationships in the internet age and changes in Canada's demographic landscape.

I'm a French Canadian about to marry a Hong Kong resident in the next year. She's trilingual in Mandarin, Cantonese, and Japanese, and I'm quadrilingual and sharing Mandarin as our common language. We have already explored the possibilities in Canada, and in spite of her lack of knowledge of English and French, she would be quite capable of starting her own online business catering to Canada's large Chinese market. In fact, she already has a tentative business plan in mind (she used to manage 300 workers before and has more recently been working in import and export between Hong Kong and mainland China).

The problems? Oh where do we start?!

Bearing in mind that I've only recently thought about this matter, the ideas below are still just a quick brainstorm.

Problem 1: the law ignores the reality of courtship in the jet age, let alone the internet age.

We'd met by chance while she was visiting her cousin in Canada. We quickly became friends, I showed her around the region when her cousin was busy, we both let our guards down (neither of us being interested in courting a foreigner), and when she went back to China (after which we both assumed our friendship would remain just that), the friendship continued to blossom online. I'd eventually visited her in China, then she came to visit my family in Canada, and I'll be going back to visit her family in China soon. At one point, her cousin offered to hire her to manage her rental business (which specializes in the Chinese market), but because she was not a citizen, Canadian law ignores the reality of courtship, we were not yet married, and we were not yet prepared to commit to marriage at that time, she could not obtain a work visa and we therefore had to maintain an expensive long distance relationship over the last year until now.

The law needs to recognize the existence of courtship otherwise it is out of touch with reality. For example, why could the government not grant a renewable five-year residency card to any foreign national in an official courtship with a Canadian citizen? It would reduce the likelihood of rushing into marriage (and marriage fraud in some cases) and allow the couple to live in the same city for some time before making the big decision. It would not cost the government any money and would introduce one more taxpayer to Canada.

To protect the foreigner from any possible abuse from his Canadian partner, the law could guarantee that the foreign partner could keep the residency card independently of the relationship afterwards, with the Canadian partner being prohibited from entering an official courtship with any other foreign national during that period of time.

To protect the Canadian partner from pressure to enter into such a relationship or marriage, the law could prohibit consensual sexual relations between the partners and allow immigration officials to replace the five-year residency visa with a one-year residency visa should they obtain proof of such while being prohibited from spying for this purpose. Though the couple could illegally engage in such relations easily enough without getting caught, it would still make the foreign partner think twice about using sex to pressure the Canadian into such a relationship given how easy it would be for the Canadian partner to prove such relations to the authorities short of the foreign partner claiming sexual assault should the relationship go sour afterwards, given that there does exist a grey area between consensual sexual relations and sexual assault.

Problem 2: Canada's language requirements to obtain Canadian citizenship. Unless she's planning to work for the Federal Government, why should the government care whether or not she knows English or French as long as she can prove her ability to sustain herself in Canada? Why not give her a five-year residency visa and let her prove herself? Besides, just as it's possible to live in Canada in English without knowing French or French without knowing English, it is quite possible to live in Canada in Chinese. The last time she was in Canada, I remember spending over two straight weeks outside of work living more than half of my free time in Chinese with my partner, her cousin and her husband and friends, whether at home, in restaurants, at the bank opening a joint account and using a Chinese-language ATM, reading Chinese-language newspapers, or cell phone and other shops that all served in Chinese. Many English and French Canadians fail to appreciate (or racism prevents them from accepting) that there are almost as many Chinese Canadians as French Canadians in Canada, and that a knowledge of English or French is superfluous to the business-savvy Chinese in Canada (some traditional doctors in Chinese medicine in Burnaby do not know English and serve Chinese speaking patients only). In fact, I'd used more Chinese than French outside of work while visiting Ottawa during that week!

Problem 3: Lack of protection against ill-willed Canadians.

I'd heard one story (the veracity of which I've not been able to confirm) of a poor Canadian marrying a rich Chinese. They'd bought a house together, and then when she'd come back from a trip to visit her parents in China, she couldn't enter Canada. It turned out her husband filed for divorce and contacted border services to keep her out of the country. She hadn't seen any of this coming. Certainly a foreigner should be allowed at least a five-year residency visa after a divorce unless a valid reason to not grant one can be presented in court. Let's not assume that ill-willed Canadians are incapable of wielding Canadian law as a weapon against an innocent unsuspecting foreigner for his own ends, and let's not allow the government to serve as an unwitting accomplice to such.

These are just some of the problems I've been able to identify in Canadian immigration policy, and I'm sure there are plenty more.

[-1=e^ipi]

Courtship, marriage and someone's relationship status should not be a major factor in immigration as far as I am concerned, so that would solve problems 1 and 3. What should matter is if the person will contribute economically.

For problem 2, the language laws are ridiculous. If a potential immigrant would net contribute economically to Canada then they should be let in.

[PIK]

You want to be here, learn the language, it is that simple. The notion that we need to bend over for people to come is stupid. Don't like the rules........................

[-1=e^ipi]

You want to be here, learn the language, it is that simple. The notion that we need to bend over for people to come is stupid.

But you are advocating for a policy that makes us worse off as a country by excluding productive immigrants that can get by without English for French. The status quo seems far more stupid.

[TimG]

You can't integrate immigrants from various cultures without a common language. We do not want immigrants who can only function within their own ethnic ghettos nor do we want immigrants who use Canada as passport of convenience and spend all of the time abroad.

[Moonlight Graham]

Problem 2: Canada's language requirements to obtain Canadian citizenship. Unless she's planning to work for the Federal Government, why should the government care whether or not she knows English or French as long as she can prove her ability to sustain herself in Canada?

First let me say that your wife-to-be doesn't need to be a citizen to live here. She can (and must do so first before becoming a citizen) apply to be a Permanent Resident of Canada, where there are no language requirements if she applied under the Family Class program, as far as I know.

As for citizenship, language is easily one of the strongest aspect of culture, if not the strongest. If you want to assimilate into Canadian society how can you when you can't speak either of the official languages of the country? How can you make voting decisions when you can't understand what any of the politicians are saying? We are a multicultural society but it isn't asking much to have voting citizens of this country able to speak the language everyone else can speak, for most every citizen to be able to communicate with each other. I personally do not like or want more large enclaves of people who can only function in their foreign mother tongue(s) and not with the rest of Canadians. In fact I despise them.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[-1=e^ipi]

You can't integrate immigrants from various cultures without a common language.

Canada does not have a common language. Arguably the USA does not have a common language anymore due to Spanish. If the person can be a net contributing member of society in Vancouver, then we are better off. Also, I'd rather have 100 productive Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong that can't speak good English or French than 1 Wahhabi Islamist immigrant that is fluently bilingual.

[TimG]

Canada does not have a common language.

Yes it does: English outside of Quebec; French inside of Quebec.

If the person can be a net contributing member of society in Vancouver, then we are better off. Also, I'd rather have 100 productive Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong that can't speak good English or French than 1 Wahhabi Islamist immigrant that is fluently bilingual.

You cannot contribute to Canadian society if you can't speak with people outside of your ethnic ghetto. Contribution is more than simply using Canada a base of operations while you run businesses in other countries.

[-1=e^ipi]

You cannot contribute to Canadian society if you can't speak with people outside of your ethnic ghetto.

You can if it's a big enough ghetto and you are talented enough in other areas.

Also, do you not see how letting in more immigrants from Hong Kong reduces the magnitude of our future problem with Islamism?

Edit: Also less SJWs per capita. Less Islamists, less SJWs. Seems like a plus to me.

Edited July 2, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[PIK]

We have enough problems with incompetent PS workers because they have to be able to speak French, which means we are not getting the best and you want people now that cant speak either.

[dre]

Contribution is more than simply using Canada a base of operations while you run businesses in other countries.

Thats your own opinion. If a chinese person comes here and sets up a thriving business, and lives here and pays taxes then they are contributing a hell of a lot more than most natural born Canadian citizens.

An english language litmus test would be incredibly stupid.

[Argus]

You can if it's a big enough ghetto and you are talented enough in other areas.

We don't WANT ghettos that big. We want to reduce their size.

[Argus]

Thats your own opinion. If a chinese person comes here and sets up a thriving business, and lives here and pays taxes then they are contributing a hell of a lot more than most natural born Canadian citizens.

An english language litmus test would be incredibly stupid.

Repeated studies by a variety of government, business and academic groups have stated that one of, if not THE primary requirements for success in Canada for immigrants is a strong knowledge of the local language. Lack of English/French makes it impossible for highly educated immigrants to work in their field, and contributes to a high unemployment rate and a high poverty rate among immigrants.

And you think a language test is stupid?

[Keepitsimple]

It's easy to forget that no matter what our immigration "quota" or "target" is, there are only so many openings......and there are plenty of people who are waiting who already speak English or French or have taken the trouble to learn it. So who gets selected? The people who can speak one of our languages. Do like thousands of others from Hong Kong - learn the language.

[Argus]

Canada's pre-jet-age immigration policies need a major overhaul.

I definitely agree. I just don't agree with the changes you seem to want.

Problem 1: the law ignores the reality of courtship in the jet age, let alone the internet age.

As it should. Courtship does not imply any degree of commitment whatsoever. If your girlfriend wants to come here for a while, she can. She just can't work here or stay here beyond a certain length of time. The same rules exist in every country in the world, as far as I know.

The law needs to recognize the existence of courtship otherwise it is out of touch with reality.

The very idea of letting people live here and work here because they say they're dating a Canadians is absurd, and so open to abuse I don't even know where to start.

Problem 2: Canada's language requirements to obtain Canadian citizenship. Unless she's planning to work for the Federal Government, why should the government care whether or not she knows English or French

Without knowledge of the local language your girlfriend is essentially a foreigner living in Canada, with no acquaintance of or familiarity with local customs or people. Nor has she any way to acquire that knowledge and familiarity, however long she lives here. As a Frenchman you ought to be quite familiar with Quebec's attempts to preserve its culture. What do you think Quebec would say to your suggestion Canadians should be able to bring people over without any local language skills, or intention of learning them? Furthermore, as a standard rule, immigrants who do not speak English/French have little chance of success in Canada. Citizenship implies, among other things, voting. We don't want foreigners voting in our elections. Canadians make bad enough choices on their own.

Problem 3: Lack of protection against ill-willed Canadians.

Almost all the problems with foreigners interacting romantically with Canadians which involve 'ill-will' do so on the part of the foreigner, who will romance some pathetic Canadian who can't find anyone local, pretend they love him/her, get Canadian citizenship and then immediately dump them. This happens quite often. I've never heard of the reverse until this post. I suppose it's possible it occasionally happens but it's certainly not much of an issue.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Argus

[Second-class Canadian]

"You want to be here, learn the language, it is that simple. The notion that we need to bend over for people to come is stupid. Don't like the rules........................"

I prefer not to guess at incomplete sentences, but I'll take a shot at it... sick it up, buttercup. The slaves didn't like the rules, so British North America abrogated slavery. The indigenous peoples didn't like the rules, so we abrogated the residential school system. The Japanese Canadians didn't like internment either. Are you saying the rules should all be set in stone and never questioned?

"But you are advocating for a policy that makes us worse off as a country by excluding productive immigrants that can get by without English for French. The status quo seems far more stupid."

Not to mention the promotion of emmigration. I am seriously considering that. One less taxpayer and one less quadrilingual Canadian serving as a bridge between Canada's three largest ghettos.

"You can't integrate immigrants from various cultures without a common language. We do not want immigrants who can only function within their own ethnic ghettos nor do we want immigrants who use Canada as passport of convenience and spend all of the time abroad."

From my own observations with my own eyes, Chinese in Canada who do not speak English or French well are communicating increasingly frequently with English and French Canadians who have learnt Chinese.

"First let me say that your wife-to-be doesn't need to be a citizen to live here. She can (and must do so first before becoming a citizen) apply to be a Permanent Resident of Canada, where there are no language requirements if she applied under the Family Class program, as far as I know."

Yes, but most normal relationships do not start at marriage. Even assuming the most religious of relationships with no sexual relations prior to marriage, a relationship still develops prior to it, and a courtship is such a relationship, intermediary between friendship and marriage. In the meantime we're left trapped in a long-distance relationship.

"As for citizenship, language is easily one of the strongest aspect of culture, if not the strongest. If you want to assimilate into Canadian society how can you when you can't speak either of the official languages of the country? How can you make voting decisions when you can't understand what any of the politicians are saying? We are a multicultural society but it isn't asking much to have voting citizens of this country able to speak the language everyone else can speak, for most every citizen to be able to communicate with each other. I personally do not like or want more large enclaves of people who can only function in their foreign mother tongue(s) and not with the rest of Canadians. In fact I despise them."

You're obviously monolingual. My partner could communicate with French Canadians better than most English-speakers here, given my knowledge of French. And she'll be able to better able to integrate with Chinese Canadians, and I with Japanese Canadians through her. So if anything, we'd be better integrated than most Canadians are.

"Yes it does: English outside of Quebec; French inside of Quebec."

Chinese is the dominant language in Burnaby, even over English. Are you proposing that those living in Burnaby should be required to integrate into the local community?

"You cannot contribute to Canadian society if you can't speak with people outside of your ethnic ghetto."

Again, you'd be slurp rise at how many English and French Canadians speak Chinese today, especially where Chinese dominates.

"Contribution is more than simply using Canada a base of operations while you run businesses in other countries."

But it's also possible now to do business in Chinese alone within Canada's own borders. With Free Trade with the USA, that adds the US market too. And let's not pretend that English Canadians don't trade internationally.

"You can if it's a big enough ghetto and you are talented enough in other areas."

Chinese is Canada's third biggest ghetto very close after English and French.

"Also, do you not see how letting in more immigrants from Hong Kong reduces the magnitude of our future problem with Islamism?"

Interesting. I'm a convert to Islam from Catholicism; she's Protestant. That said, I don't see the relevance.

"We have enough problems with incompetent PS workers because they have to be able to speak French, which means we are not getting the best and you want people now that cant speak either."

But in the private sector, some Chinese are more competent that English and French entrepreneurs.

"We don't WANT ghettos that big. We want to reduce their size."

Allowing more Chinese in would reduce the relative size of the English and French ghetyos, would it not?

"Repeated studies by a variety of government, business and academic groups have stated that one of, if not THE primary requirements for success in Canada for immigrants is a strong knowledge of the local language. Lack of English/French makes it impossible for highly educated immigrants to work in their field, and contributes to a high unemployment rate and a high poverty rate among immigrants."

Isolate the Chinese community and check those results again. Given that there are almost as many Chinese and French in Canada, and that the Chinese built the railway, why not add Chinese to the Official Languages Act? Their market is sufficient in itself, unlike smaller communities. You could do business more easily in Chinese in Burnaby or YVR than in French.

[Second-class Canadian]

Just to add to the complications, my father would not be allowed to attend our marriage in Hong Kong due to a previous military security clearance. He cannot enter China for at least another five years. This leaves us with no choice but to marry in Canada even if we end up settling in Hong Kong right away afterwards. He could still visit us five years down the road, or we visit him. Just another complication in all the bureaucracy.

[TimG]

From my own observations with my own eyes, Chinese in Canada who do not speak English or French well are communicating increasingly frequently with English and French Canadians who have learnt Chinese.

A tiny minority. A common language is required to maintain a civil society. The dual languages of French and English cause enough headaches but at least with them we have French in Quebec and English everywhere else as the common tongue.

Nothing but grief will come from a policy that does not require citizens to know the language. If someone does not want to learn English or French they can be a permanent resident but nothing more. That would allow Canada to benefit economically from the tiny minority of immigrants that can contribute to society without learning the common language.

Edited July 2, 2015 by TimG

[Second-class Canadian]

Citizenship is a lesser concern, but residing in Canada before marriage would be nice.

[Moonlight Graham]

Canada does not have a common language.

And this fact has almost separated the country on multiple occasions. Language is one of the strongest aspect of culture (because it separates people, similar to religion), and when you have more than one significant culture in one country it will cause rifts in national unity. Look at the problems in Canada (not only with the French but Aboriginals as well), look at countries in the middle-east and Africa where civil wars have constantly started over conflicting cultures. Look at the social problems occurring in Europe (Britain, France etc.).

There are 1.3 billion people living in China/Hong Kong. You let enough of them into Canada without asking them to assimilate in basic ways like language and a few decades from now they'll start demanding their own language rights as the French did, and it will cause problems as it did with the French.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[The_Squid]

And this fact has almost separated the country on multiple occasions. Language is one of the strongest aspect of culture (because it separates people, similar to religion), and when you have more than one significant culture in one country it will cause rifts in national unity. Look at the problems in Canada (not only with the French but Aboriginals as well), look at countries in the middle-east and Africa where civil wars have constantly started over conflicting cultures. Look at the social problems occurring in Europe (Britain, France etc.).

There are 1.3 billion people living in China/Hong Kong. You let enough of them into Canada without asking them to assimilate in basic ways like language and a few decades from now they'll start demanding their own language right as the French did, and it will cause problems.

Don't the Scots and Brits speak the same language? You're oversimplifying it to be all about what language is spoken, but it certainly is much deeper than just that.

[-1=e^ipi]

And you think a language test is stupid?

Language skills are an asset, but they shouldn't be a veto.

We don't WANT ghettos that big.

I don't mind ghettos that big, provided they aren't certain types of ghettos.

[-1=e^ipi]

Interesting. I'm a convert to Islam from Catholicism; she's Protestant. That said, I don't see the relevance.

Yes, but there is a big difference between a liberal Muslim and a Wahhabi Islamist. The liberal Muslims aren't going around advocating killing gays or apostates, blowing up planes, suggesting that freedom of speech should be thrown out when it comes to criticizing religion, or killing people on parliament hill.

Given that there are almost as many Chinese and French in Canada, and that the Chinese built the railway, why not add Chinese to the Official Languages Act?

Mandarin or Cantonese?

[Moonlight Graham]

Don't the Scots and Brits speak the same language? You're oversimplifying it to be all about what language is spoken, but it certainly is much deeper than just that.

I said "Language is one of the strongest aspect of culture", I didn't say it's the only aspect.

[Moonlight Graham]

Yes, but most normal relationships do not start at marriage. Even assuming the most religious of relationships with no sexual relations prior to marriage, a relationship still develops prior to it, and a courtship is such a relationship, intermediary between friendship and marriage. In the meantime we're left trapped in a long-distance relationship.

I sympathize with you on this. But you do have options. 1. Get married. 2. She can learn english or french 2. Move to Hong Kong

You can't expect Canada to change fundamental laws because you want to shack up with your girlfriend.

Chinese is Canada's third biggest ghetto very close after English and French.

Very close? According to the 2011 census, of the 35 million Canadians there's 7.2 million francophones who list french as their mother tongue, and many more who can speak it as a 2nd language. By the same census there's about a million Canadians who report a Chinese language as their mother tongue.

Given that there are almost as many Chinese and French in Canada, and that the Chinese built the railway, why not add Chinese to the Official Languages Act?

You're saying there's as many Chinese in Canada as French speaking Canadians? There isn't, not even close. Punjab close behind Chinese languages, why not add that as well. Not sure what Chinese having helped build a railway has anything to do with our Official languages.