WestCoastRunner Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Where did I say direct impact? Devaluing of a group of people over time causing lower self-esteem and therefore a higher suicide rate is more of an indirect effect. Also, the gender suicide-gap has been increasing in recent years Feminists are devaluing men, thereby causing an indirect impact on suicides of men. Oh Please....... Do you honestly think that you can be taken seriously? Edited July 1, 2015 by WestCoastRunner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Feminists are devaluing men, thereby causing an indirect impact on suicides of men. Oh Please....... Do you honestly think that you can be taken seriously? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yes. Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'll also let bell hooks respond to this remark, "Feminism is not simply a struggle to end male chauvinism or a movement to ensure women have equal rights with men. It is a commitment to eradicating the ideology of domination that permeates Western culture on various levels–sex, race, class to name a few–and a commitment to reorganizing society so that the self-development of people can take precedence over imperialism, economic expansion, and material desires." I think bell hooks is looking far too much into what feminism is. Maybe the above is true for some feminists but certainly not all. I, for one, am a feminist, and I don't necessarily agree with all of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 1. Your statement ignores the fact that all males, not just cisgendered males have a higher suicide rate. So your comment is dismissive of sexual minorities and is therefore a micro-aggression. 2. Males of all races have a higher suicide rate. So your comment is dismissive of the issues of non-white males. 3. Your portrayal of white cisgendered males as people that desire oppression devalues them, which can cause higher suicide rates. You still have this on the table: What's traditionalism? Who labelled it patriarchy? What were her words exactly and what larger body of work did it come from? You do an awful lot of speaking for feminists here, while putting them down, as opposed to actually citing their words and works. Of course, speaking for them in strawmen and arguing against those is a lot easier, so it's understandable why you would do that. Then we can come back to how ridiculous your next post is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I think bell hooks is looking far too much into what feminism is.What does this even mean? And why do you think any man has a say whatsoever in what feminism is or is not? Again, it's their movement. If you want to be an ally, share their voices. But you don't get to define feminism for women, ever. Edited July 1, 2015 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Feminists are devaluing men, thereby causing an indirect impact on suicides of men. Oh Please....... Do you honestly think that you can be taken seriously?Ice cream sales and murders coincide with each other, so obviously ice cream causes murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Didn't you know? White cishet men are so fragile that if they can't oppress people they'll kill themselves. So you should just allow yourself to be dominated, otherwise you're a murderer....or something. White cishet men? A whole lot of microaggression going on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Right. Look, I get that the flawed ideological narrative that you and cybercoma are deeply emotionally invested in can't compete with the criticisms I have made of it in this thread and elsewhere, so to keep the delusion alive you two have to pretend I have a different position than I actually have or that I have some hidden secret motive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 But you don't get to define feminism for women, ever. Pretty sure that Moonlight Graham is defining feminism for himself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 What does this even mean? It means she's assuming too much about what feminism is. Feminism isn't about equality for all humans on the earth. There's racist feminists, there's capitalist feminists, there's feminists who run businesses that exploit the poor in developing countries etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) And why do you think any man has a say whatsoever in what feminism is or is not? Again, it's their movement. If you want to be an ally, share their voices. But you don't get to define feminism for women, ever. Says the man who just tried to define what feminism is and is not. I'll believe whatever the f*** I want. Edited July 1, 2015 by Michael Hardner profanity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 What's traditionalism? Traditionalism is similar to the feminist concept of patriarchy but without the problems I have listed above (is gender neutral, isn't homogeneous, isn't necessarily singular, etc.). If you want a definition, here is one "the upholding or maintenance of tradition, especially so as to resist change". In the context of gender issues, traditionalism usually refers to positions or cultures that uphold traditional gender roles. You do an awful lot of speaking for feminists here Have I misrepresented feminism in this thread? If so, give an example. speaking for them Speaking for 'them'? Who is 'them' and how is explaining the flaws behind the idea of 'Patriarchy' speaking for 'them'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Says the man who just tried to define what feminism is and is not. I'll believe whatever the f*** I want. Apparently men aren't allowed to have their own opinions about feminism and feminism belongs to women. Cybercoma's position isn't sexist at all. *sarcasm* Edited July 1, 2015 by Charles Anthony quoted profanity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Apparently men aren't allowed to have their own opinions about feminism and feminism belongs to women. Cybercoma's position isn't sexist at all. *sarcasm* That's right. What makes you think you have a seat at that table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Traditionalism is similar to the feminist concept of patriarchy but without the problemsTraditionalism is feminism without the problems. I can see we're really getting somewhere. Have I misrepresented feminism in this thread? If so, give an example.You misrepresent feminism every time you touch your keyboard. I've been explaining to you how for months now. You're far beyond another example. Speaking for 'them'? Who is 'them' and how is explaining the flaws behind the idea of 'Patriarchy' speaking for 'them'?Speaking for them, as in saying what feminism is and isn't. You constantly try to define what real feminism is. It's not for you to define. It's been defined. The literature is out there. Read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 That's right. What makes you think you have a seat at that table? They don't have a seat at the feminist table when they are condemning feminists. Pretty simple. They have a seat at the opposite table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) That's right. What makes you think you have a seat at that table? Wow. Now he's blatantly openly sexist. You misrepresent feminism every time you touch your keyboard. I've been explaining to you how for months now. The reason you think I misrepresent feminism is because your belief system involves a large amount of cognitive dissonance so logical consistency doesn't matter to you. Speaking for them, as in saying what feminism is and isn't. You constantly try to define what real feminism is. I have used definitions of patriarchy in this thread. Where have I defined feminism in this thread? I have discussed the implications of an innate property of using the word feminism to describe a desirable position, but that isn't defining it. When I have discussed definitions of feminism before, I have always emphasized that definitions vary and feminism can mean anything from gender egalitarianism to misandric hate ideology. It's been defined. The literature is out there. Read it. Oh no. Another 'the debate is over' type argument. How unexpected. *sarcasm* Edited July 1, 2015 by -1=e^ipi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 They don't have a seat at the feminist table when they are condemning feminists. Pretty simple. They have a seat at the opposite table. Feminist table, opposing table. You are perpetuating the myth of a false dichotomy of positions with respect to gender issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Feminist table, opposing table. You are perpetuating the myth of a false dichotomy of positions with respect to gender issues. You are simply too wordy for any meaningful discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'll believe whatever I want. Exactly. Passive aggressive arguments shouldn't change that for any of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 You are simply too wordy for any meaningful discussion. I think you meant I am too meaningful for a feminist discussion. I like precise definitions; unfortunately that doesn't help the SJW agenda since it makes it harder for them to change meaning whenever it is convenient for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Btw, all anyone has to do to show that I am wrong about this thread is to offer a testable prediction of Patriarchy that isn't also offered by Matriarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Wow. Now he's blatantly openly sexist.This is just stupid. You don't get a seat at the table because you're not a woman. It's pretty easy to understand. You can be an ally, but you don't get to define feminism or have any say whatsoever in what it is or what it stands for and neither do I. Your insistence on actually having a say in what feminism is and your insolent tantrums over being called out on it time and time again demonstrate male privilege perfectly. Women can't even have this. They can't even have their own movement for equality without men trying to define that for them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Exactly. Passive aggressive arguments shouldn't change that for any of us.You get to believe whatever you want. And if you know the things you say are harmful to people and you decide to continue saying them, you have every right to do that as well. Stop crying like a baby when people think you're an asshole because of it though. You want to be an asshole, then you get all upset when people call you one. Edited July 1, 2015 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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