Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 Because it's far too simple a model. If you said something like "people from country A who have this kind of education and speak this language" are more likely to succeed, it would indicate you had a more complicated and likely more accurate predictor of success, assuming of course that they're not trying to import low wage labour, that that's not a goal. We can only use what data the government puts out. If the government collected and collated more data on immigrants from the various source countries, or even by ages or professions, we'd be better able to screen them for the most likely successes. Why doesn't the government collect and collate this data? There are so many people that want to come to Canada, yet we put very little effort into studying what works and what doesn't before admitting them. Thus we are left with little but the fact that, according to government stats, people from certain areas, like the middle east and western Asia, perform poorly (s a group) in terms of economic success, while those from the UK and US perform three times better. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Purely anecdotal evidence, based on the attitudes and words of people I have known all my life. And have you not, on numerous occasions, dismissed the usefulness of purely anecdotal evidence? I don't think you can extend a study like that to saying people don't want immigrants in Canada, though. We're arguing a tower of babel, or at best your social circles versus mine. Why? Are Canadians unique among humans? Besides, you're changing the argument, since I've never said that people 'don't want immigrants' in Canada. What I and others, many others, many, many others have suggested is that we are taking in too many immigrants too quickly, and that many of them are not suitably equipped with either the cultural value set or the educational and skill set to successfully contribute to Canadian society. Edited August 14, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 Bigotry, racism and xenophobia are personal and subjective views growing for a long time in an environment of hate and distrust. Why is it every time anyone discusses immigration you feel the need to insert some sanctimonious bleating about how superior you feel you are, and disparage those who disagree with your knowledge-free love of immigration? If you actually have anything of substance to contribute, any evidence, facts, information, or even a coherent argument, well this is a discussion forum, you know .... ah, but you don't, do you? You never do. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 I suggest that there is a big difference between immigration policy and demeaning and insulting minorities. I suggest there is a difference between taking part in a discussion, and standing on a lofty pedestal sneering at those who do. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) del Edited August 14, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Somehow some of you guys think that white culture is superior to other cultures and even a few think it is perfect. Well not so. It is different but not superior. It has its own problems. First, this is not a colour issue. I don't speak of 'white culture'. There is a general background culture in Canada which consists of a set of values and understood concepts of behaviour followed by the vast bulk of people. Other nations have cultures which are wildly different from others, and some of them, such as those from certain Muslim countries, and others, have strongly supported aspects which are completely antithetical to ours. The culture of Canada is far from perfect. No one has suggested otherwise. But yes, it definitely IS superior to that of certain other countries and regions, particularly those steeped in medieval cultural practices and beliefs. Edited August 14, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) So Argus you are saying that alcoholism, drug abuse, wife battering, sexual assaults, teenage pregnancy, Adultry ..... mostly happening in white cultures by SOME NOT ALL whites (not only Canadian but Eastern Europe, US and Western Europe cultures) and the list goes on are smaller problems than covering head to toe and treating women as second class citizens by SOME NOT ALL Muslim people? As your reasons why Canadian cultures is superior? Yes or no? Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
PIK Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 Of course we will think our culture is superior, just like very other culture especially the Muslim culture. Which is trying to exterminate cultures as we speak. And by destroying artifacts to eliminate any trace of different cultures. Why do you hate our culture so much? Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Michael Hardner Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 We can only use what data the government puts out. If the government collected and collated more data on immigrants from the various source countries, or even by ages or professions, we'd be better able to screen them for the most likely successes. Why doesn't the government collect and collate this data? There are so many people that want to come to Canada, yet we put very little effort into studying what works and what doesn't before admitting them. I'm pretty sure education level and language is or should be collected. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 So Argus you are saying that alcoholism, drug abuse, wife battering, sexual assaults, teenage pregnancy, ..... mostly happening in white cultures by SOME NOT ALL whites (not only Canadian but Eastern Europe, US and Western Europe cultures) and the list goes on are smaller problems than covering head to toe and treating women as second class citizens by SOME NOT ALL Muslim people? As your reasons why Canadian cultures is superior? Yes or no? All cultures have social problems, including sexual assaults, drug abuse, etc. We're not speaking here about this. We're speaking of basic societal beliefs and how that society is structured. How do its members treat each other? How much do they value truth, justice and knowledge as opposed to dogmatic religious bigotry and violence? What respect to these cultures espouse for those who are different than they are? Canada has a general respect for law and for order, a respect for each other, and each others' beliefs, and a sincere desire to help uplift those who cannot help themselves due to physical or emotional issues. Not to put too fine a point on it, but homosexuality is a good tripwire indicator. In Canada, homosexuals are treated with respect, not merely by law but generally from the population at large. If you tried to hold a gay rights parade in just about any Muslim countries raging mobs would hack and beat the marchers to death. We're talking about societies in which bigotry is taught in schools and codified in laws, and where misogyny, including spousal abuse, is a way of life with no laws to prevent it, countries where religious and ethnic minorities live in fear of mobs attacking and burning their houses, temples and whole neighbourhoods. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Of course we will think our culture is superior, just like very other culture especially the Muslim culture. Which is trying to exterminate cultures as we speak. And by destroying artifacts to eliminate any trace of different cultures. Why do you hate our culture so much? Geez please don't throw accusations. I don't hate this culture I am part of it. What I hate is when I see and read women deprived of their rights and equality in certain countries. Stripped of their rights to choose what to wear who to marry, and many other basis rights like driving and education in stinky countries like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and UAE. I admire Canadian culture to have overcome all these (remember 200 years ago same issues existed here) so please stop throwing insults just because I point out the fact that our culture is NOT perfect either and has issues of its own and some people coming over totally ignoring all these facts throwing slogans that their culture (our culture) is superior and I remind them that they should think twice before making such statements. All I say is lets not hate (others who may look, believe or behave differently) and before claiming superiority lets remind ourselves of our own issues too. Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 I'm pretty sure education level and language is or should be collected. It certainly is. I had a employee in Africa who was interested in immigrating so I wet online and found a .ca page that helps you determine eligibility and education level, language, and work skills were high on the list. Quote
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 I'm pretty sure education level and language is or should be collected. I'm speaking about collecting information pertaining to how immigrants perform after being in Canada a few years and separating that according to a variety of things which tell us what kind of immigrant is the most and least successful. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 And have you not, on numerous occasions, dismissed the usefulness of purely anecdotal evidence? Yes. I'm not saying that my experiences are universal, I'm just telling you why I have my opinion in response to your question. I wouldn't, for example, try to say that policy should be changed based on Harder's social group response. Why? Are Canadians unique among humans? Besides, you're changing the argument, since I've never said that people 'don't want immigrants' in Canada. What I and others, many others, many, many others have suggested is that we are taking in too many immigrants too quickly, and that many of them are not suitably equipped with either the cultural value set or the educational and skill set to successfully contribute to Canadian society.Well, I think that you're changing the argument if you're trying to use studies that people 'prefer their own kind' to justify some kind of policy change, and now talking about being suitably equipped. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 I'm speaking about collecting information pertaining to how immigrants perform after being in Canada a few years and separating that according to a variety of things which tell us what kind of immigrant is the most and least successful. So am I. You're using income as the measure of success, with only one factor (country of origin) as the predictor. We collect more data than that, I'm sure, so why would we just use a blunt method such as that ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 Well, I think that you're changing the argument if you're trying to use studies that people 'prefer their own kind' to justify some kind of policy change, and now talking about being suitably equipped. I'm not. This is a side trip into my own personal feelings, which you seem to believe are dying out and which I suggest are largely universal and will never change. Even children want to be like their peers, and want their peers to be like them. What is peer group pressure but the expression of the desire for others to act largely the same? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 I'm not. This is a side trip into my own personal feelings, which you seem to believe are dying out and which I suggest are largely universal and will never change. Ok, I see now. To add to the conversation, I think there's probably more to "my own kind" than race, religion, and what have you. I hang around artists, and none of us think that our opinions are shared by the majority so we're different in that way. Even children want to be like their peers, and want their peers to be like them. What is peer group pressure but the expression of the desire for others to act largely the same? I agree that this is natural, and that government propaganda only has someone of an effect but culture is a living thing. For example racism, or even racial prejudice as it was once openly practiced is now reviled. Things change. Racism isn't the same thing to young people today, because they haven't lived in it as we did. Real racism is more of a rare thing to experience directly, perhaps, but it's not a horrifying crime as depicted in the media. They also don't see voluntarily separateness as necessarily a bad thing, nor do they expect everyone to accept them, nor do they think racism has been solved, nor do they think racism is a valid viewpoint... it's more real today, and more nuanced too. There's a saying, once you fix problem #1 then #2 gets a promotion. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Not to put too fine a point on it, but homosexuality is a good tripwire indicator. In Canada, homosexuals are treated with respect, not merely by law but generally from the population at large. If you tried to hold a gay rights parade in just about any Muslim countries raging mobs would hack and beat the marchers to death. We're talking about societies in which bigotry is taught in schools and codified in laws, and where misogyny, including spousal abuse, is a way of life with no laws to prevent it, countries where religious and ethnic minorities live in fear of mobs attacking and burning their houses, temples and whole neighbourhoods. Argus, you have brought up the tolerance for homosexuals in our culture a couple of times but it is simply not true. In some white cultures (like in Russia) gay parade has been also attacked by fascists and people hurt. As for Canada true Canada has far more tolerant culture than Russia and many other white countries and is by far more tolerant than many Muslim countries but it happens here too though not at the same extend. I was a witness of that myself when I was walking in Gay village in Montreal as I couldn't find parking next to a straight bar on St. Laurent close to gay village which I intended to go and I saw a number of people suddenly came out of their car with bats and started beating just about everyone they suspected of being gay. A couple who were walking in front of me dressed in skirts and wearing make ups were beaten real bad. I saw blood. And while we are discussing white culture and tolerance associated with it (not Argus but others had indicated as a reason for white culture to be superior) so was it a Muslim culture who exterminated 6 million innocent civilian Jews? Was Nazi Germany (or more recent Serbia) a white culture or a Muslim culture????. Homosexuals are being insulted all over Canada too. They use the "F" word on them or whoever some people may suspect them to be homosexual. Yes insults are being thrown by some real losers and real idiots who try to feel good and superior about themselves and a mean of covering up their own inferiority and by putting down other people who usually are falsely known as defenseless they overcome their own inferiority. And Argus there are intolerant people right here in Canada too, including Nazi sympathizers. Though I see it as not part of Canadian culture but a small minority of losers. My point on all this, it happens everywhere though I accept less in Canada. Look all I say is that all cultures have issues. Which one is worse or better is a matter of opinion and is very subjective. Lets not proclaim superiority and be divisive but rather unite as a human race. Am I too illogical or extreme to ask for this? Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) So am I. You're using income as the measure of success, with only one factor (country of origin) as the predictor. We collect more data than that, I'm sure, so why would we just use a blunt method such as that ? I don't care how much data we need to collect, I'm in favour of it. Which immigrants are more/less likely to be unemployed, on welfare, in prison, starting business, getting hired and promoted at good jobs, hell, joining local non-ethnic clubs and interacting with the community, whatever we decide are the measure of what we want. Because as far as I can determine, we make no such assessment now. The Tories have tried to use education and job skills as a screening criteria to get more successful immigrants. The jury is out on whether that has had much success. Edited August 15, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PIK Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 Citizen, the if you do care then harper is your man. Trudeau says bombing ISIS is wrong and he wont do it. Mulcair is bring all troops home. Canada will stand for nothing if either one gets in. Remember trudeau getting all upset when harper called some muslim practices against women barbaric. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 Argus, you have brought up the tolerance for homosexuals in our culture a couple of times but it is simply not true. In some white cultures (like in Russia) gay parade has been also attacked by fascists and people hurt. Okay, but once again, I'm not speaking about colours or races. I'm not speaking about 'white culture'. I'm not aware that such a thing even exists. I'm speaking about Canada vs some of the cultures of our source immigration countries. Homosexuals are being insulted all over Canada too. Again, I didn't ever suggest we were perfect, or that every single person in the country agrees with the overriding culture, or that there weren't individual acts of violence and stupidity with regard to gays, women, minorities, or each other for that matter. There are jerks and criminals in every culture. But there IS also the general, social culture and value system that the great mass of people belong to and largely adhere to, and ours is far more socially advanced than what you'll find in most of the source countries where we are gathering immigrants from. Look all I say is that all cultures have issues. Which one is worse or better is a matter of opinion and is very subjective. Lets not proclaim superiority and be divisive but rather unite as a human race. Am I too illogical or extreme to ask for this? Well, first, I disagree with you that all cultures are equal. I think we can subjectively assign a certain criteria to what a mythical advanced culture is like, and when we do we can figure out how much of our own culture resembles that. I doubt much of the culture of Muslim countries would find a home there... More importantly, all that really matters is this. We have this particular culture we like. Do we want people whose beliefs are antithetical to our own coming here by the tens and hundreds of thousand, by the millions, and influencing our politics and our cultural values to be more like theirs when theirs is demonstrably violently intolerant of almost anything different? Maybe you don't have a problem with this, but what do you think most women think of the idea of bringing over hundreds of thousands of men who instinctively, culturally, will treat them like whores if they're seen wearing short sleeved shirts? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
left_alberta Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) I was a witness of that myself when I was walking in Gay village in Montreal as I couldn't find parking next to a straight bar on St. Laurent close to gay village which I intended to go and I saw a number of people suddenly came out of their car with bats and started beating just about everyone they suspected of being gay. A couple who were walking in front of me dressed in skirts and wearing make ups were beaten real bad. I saw blood. Citizen: When did this mass gay-bashing in Montreal take place? Not that I'm doubting you, but I'm just kind of surprised that it wasn't reported in the media, at least not that I noticed. Edited August 14, 2015 by left_alberta Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Citizen, the if you do care then harper is your man. Trudeau says bombing ISIS is wrong and he wont do it. Mulcair is bring all troops home. Canada will stand for nothing if either one gets in. Remember trudeau getting all upset when harper called some muslim practices against women barbaric. PIK I do care but the way to change it is not by bombing them out of their backward culture. We should provide humanitarian help but no way I like to see another 155 Canadians lose their lives so that women can walk without a berka in Kabul. Let them take care of their own problems. I followed up last year on Bill C36. Not that it concerned me or affected me but to watch the way the conservatives manipulated to get the bill through. They selected their own pro-bill C36 witnesses to speak, refused to consult those mainly affected and manipulated the result of their own survey and brought some laws much worse and more dangerous than the ones only a year ago was struck down by Supreme Court of Canada for being bad laws. A total mockery of democracy made by a Harper and MacKay coalition. I never vote for a religious person as they are all the same. They think that their ideology comes from God and have every right to impose it on others by any means and Harper is a Christian Evangelist. No Harper is an undemocratic leader. I care too much about democracy to even think of Harper in the incoming election. He ran the most secretive corrupt government in the history of Canada. The way he and his idiot justice minister Peter MacKay manipulated to push undemocratic bills through parliament they made a mockery of democracy and democratic principals in Canada which has been a Canadian tradition. Not to mention his scandals and corruption cases. Worse of all his contempt for the Supreme Court of Canada which is the vanguard of democracy and human rights and constitution in Canada and the manners in which many times Harper tried to undermine SCC has made him an almost dictator. Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Citizen: When did this mass gay-bashing in Montreal take place? Not that I'm doubting you, but I'm just kind of surprised that it wasn't reported in the media, at least not that I noticed. It was sometimes in late 90's. I don't remember the exact year but as my best guess I think it was summer of 1997. It wasn't mass gay bashing though. Altogether about half a dozen gays or suspected gays were beaten. It happens too often and also I am not sure the media followed up on every single incident and very often there is no complaint to the police as I said it happens too frequently and most gay people think they are not protected by the law as other citizens. Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
Argus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Posted August 14, 2015 I followed up last year on Bill C36. Not that it concerned me or affected me but to watch the way the conservatives manipulated to get the bill through. They selected their own pro-bill C36 witnesses, refused to consult those mainly affected and manipulated the result of their own survey and brought some laws much worse and more dangerous than the ones only a year ago Can I ask how old you are or how long you've been in this country? You see, I've been observing politics in Ottawa since I was a young teenager and used to sit in the House and watch Pierre Trudeau. My mother, who worked on the Hill, used to bring copies of Hansard home for me to read. And all the things you are talking about above have been pretty much routine for all governments at all levels my entire life. I cannot figure why this would astonish and outrage you unless you've never seen or observed politics before. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.