Education

[Cartman]

Given equal access, we would expect university populations to look somewhat like any other population in society. Proportionate numbers of males, females, whites, protestants etc. This is not the case though because a new piece of rocket science demonstrates that universities are swelled with relatively wealthy people. Why do you think this is the case if there are things like student loans, jobs etc?

(ps I think the study was done by some rich kid )

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...ies_041108.html

The report, The Price of Knowledge, says "Canada is a long way from ensuring equitable access to ... education opportunities."

[kimmy]

If the upshot of this story is that the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor because the poor can't get into university, then there's an omission here. Apprenticeship and skilled trades are just as likely (if not moreso) to lead to a well-paying career. If financial success is our yardstick of advancement in society, then omitting apprenticeship from the study limits its value as a measure of social opportunity.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

Report on tuition impact slammed

The Canadian Federation of Students called on Ottawa to shut down the foundation and use the $285 million it gives to the provinces each year for student bursaries to establish grants to reduce student debt.

The report, which found university enrolment has spiked by 20 per cent in the last five years, ignores the impact of provincial tuition-fee freezes, said Jesse Greener, the federation's Ontario chairperson.

"Frankly, we don't understand the reason for even having the Millennium Scholarship Foundation here," said Greener.

"The money that they're spending on research is essentially putting forward an argument that is spinning the main issue, which is that tuition fees aren't the main financial barrier."

It is always interestin' when we ask the clients their opinion, instead of the vested interests.

It is absolute bullshit to suggest that people with less income will have better access to university if tuition fees are not lowered.

That is why tuition fees need to be abolished just like all medical service fees in Canada. If we would just close the loopholes, and repair Canada's taxation system, and stop letting the rich scam the system, these financial shortfalls could easily be overcome.

[takeanumber]

I believe in equal opportunity for everybody.

That was something that made Canada great.

We need to take our country back and restore equal opportunity.

I'm not advocating equal income, just the equal chance. Canada is a country where if you work hard, you can make it anywhere, regardless of where you start off.

If you disagree with that value, you're not a Canadian, and I seriously want you out of this country before you damage it anymore. If that sounds harsh and intolerant, it is, now scoot!

[RB]

Given equal access, we would expect university populations to look somewhat like any other population in society. Proportionate numbers of males, females, whites, protestants etc. This is not the case though because a new piece of rocket science demonstrates that universities are swelled with relatively wealthy people.

It is an ideal - equal access, consider the law school example, if you are weathy it is a breeze through - no worries about finances and opportunities to do well. If you are not wealthy, you become fixated, and stumble at different points of university even when smart - things have not changed much for the law profession - noticable more women applicants and admissions - but also they leave the profession in record numbers

law school view and wealth corelation

- money spent a first degree usually honors (so 4 years)

- books to practice LSAT

- maybe a LSAT tutor is desirable

- money for LSAT

- money to apply for law school

- money for courses

- summer articling – if you are rich family is connected ok, if you are not guess what networking becomes a bit tricky especially if you are not mainstream

- 3 years at law school

- 4th year find a company to do articling – the law society says there is a shortage of companies for articling students – so guess what who will find it difficult

- money for exams leading up to bar

- 8 months more in school

- money for bar exam

- after 9 years of university - looking for work

- enter Bay street law firm – if you are lucky – if rich ok you have connections

- total billing hours – should be around 1800, the more the better

- average out 10 billing hours a day excluding fancy lunch, dinner, snoozing, smoke break, washroom – get the picture – no life

- guess what if you can’t bring in new clients – who gets canned

- 9 years later make partner

- you started university age 20

- so maybe that is the goal in life @ age 39 can afford to take a girl out for dinner

- age 40’s maybe you’d die

- I should add that even when you die - you have enough wealth to keep you alive

[August1991]

I'm not advocating equal income, just the equal chance. Canada is a country where if you work hard, you can make it anywhere, regardless of where you start off.

What a foolishly idealistic view of Canada! It ain't so simple.

But TalkNumb, are you suggesting that parents should not have the right to give a helping hand to their children?

[Look at RB's post and see the references to "rich family with contacts". That's life and it's not going to change.]

[RB]

I have observed in employment that when there is a fair representation of the sexes at all levels of a hierarchy, (also clarifying, this means that women and men are found at the executive level jobs) there is an upscale chain reaction that bridge considerable a gap of other disadvantaged groups.

If the upshot of this story is that the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor because the poor can't get into university, then there's an omission here. Apprenticeship and skilled trades are just as likely (if not moreso) to lead to a well-paying career. If financial success is our yardstick of advancement in society, then omitting apprenticeship from the study limits its value as a measure of social opportunity.

I have a bit of a problem with pushing kids into trade because they are poor. I was on a panel back in July addressing this same trades issue with teachers. The teachers would like to think trades is an easy solution for a particular depressed area in Toronto.

First check and see who are predominantly the poor people in Canada, hint, I am sure that they are not of a European decent, and male.. added as an afterthought

I don't have the stats on European decent single family females, even though they might be doing better than probably say a visible male miniorty they might be still poor

Here is my problem if we are connecting education with wealth and give these poor kids vocational training in trades, you reduced an entire poor community to trades, and they will remain poor.

Well the good news, in terms of economic gain look a max. wage about 30/hr, thats how rich they become, now they will never establish themselves outside of their trades, they will have no contingencies in place a plumber is a plumber is a plumber - this is the same idea of creation of limits that put people in their place

[maplesyrup]

I think it is quite simple what the problem is of getting people going into the trades. It is the career counsellors in the high schools. How many of them do you think went to university as opposed to learning a trade? It is a bullshit system where trades are discouraged or put down as being dirty or whatever. Snobbery is alive and well in Canada. It is a real shame because many young kids are being deprived of a decent future.

[Stoker]

Well the good news, in terms of economic gain look a max. wage about 30/hr, thats how rich they become, now they will never establish themselves outside of their trades, they will have no contingencies in place a plumber is a plumber is a plumber - this is the same idea of creation of limits that put people in their place

I find this example funny........I'm a pipefitter (think big plumbing), with my sites set on a law degree I'm hardly from a rich/affluent family mind you........

Really though, the attitude that seems to be present amongest "professionals" regarding trades is slowly becoming wrong with the coming retirement of the baby boomers.

For example, my boss is a sub-contractor for a larger housing developer.......after parts and paying the wages of myself and two co-workers, my boss cleared $32k for the month of October. Granted this was a longer/above average month, he figures he still clears close to 22k-25k a month on average.

Another example, on New Years 2001 I was living and working over in Vancouver, our boss aloud us to charge whatever we wanted for service calls on New Years eve......even if you live in the British properties, $350 an hour will still take a dent out of any persons cheque book

Or jeez, look what some of the trades people are making out in Alberta and Northern BC.....it's crazy money and is there for those willing to work for it......such as life

[RB]

I will further clarify my take on the position of trades.

If you have wealth there is no way a career counsellor or whomever will push the kids into trades – they head off to university and then manage a trades company

I don’t wish to discourage trades, there is a shortage of the same – what I am saying is that when you are poor, you are directed into career paths, and it questions the brainwashing and whether is this where the kids necessarily want to be and the best interest of the kid

I might add that these poor kids would be probably the first person in their family to enter into a Canadian university given an opportunity

There is a much broader social issue arising than just putting poor kids into trades, its a about containing an entire community into some economic class

I was a bit generous with the wage range, these are the general rates for plumbers taken from job futures using NOC

Hourly wages ($20.49) are higher than average ($16.91)

Pumber hourly rate

[maplesyrup]

If you put an entire community into the trades they would be laughing all the way to the bank.

Of course there are other things besides money in life, but it sure is great to be able to earn a decent living, and support a family.

The system is fucked. We will be importing trades people in BC for sure over the next decade. It is somewhat similiar to the doctor and nurse shortages except for different reasons.

[Stoker]

I see what your saying RB. And I do agree to an extent, I graduated in the late 90s and the career counsellors were not so much pushing trades, as they were computer sciences (circa 95-98).

In doing so, a large portion of my age group went into computers, and sadly many of those that finished their education (and I keep in touch with) are now in their mid twenties with a computer degree and working at Walmart or Mcdonalds, and planning to go into something different.

I really think that career counsellors should just present the options and perquisites to the students (regardless of their finacial level or race), instead of their own opinions and the "current trend/flavour of the week".

[RB]

If you put an entire community into the trades they would be laughing all the way to the bank.

well it is a similar construction to the Chinatowns only there is no laughter and you wonder why

[Stoker]

As for the hourly wage on the government site RB, the average likely includeds the wages of an apprentice and service plumbers. You won't find a Journeyman plumber/pipefitter/Sprinkler fitter/gas fitter, with his or her's inter-provincial seal, cross connection ticket and BC gas ticket making under $26 an hour in BC....

When you factor in benifits, a union plumber is making over $ 35 an hour (When he's working).

[RB]

yes also when you factor out taxes i fear the ungodly rate of take home maybe 9/hr

if we ask the prime minster how much he is making, he'd say $125k/yr or did he have an increase

ok my point though is the average rates for the plumber is Hourly wages ($20.49) are higher than average ($16.91) - this is consistent data and taken from EI reporting and other payroll surveys

parallel this rate to a traditional profession say a dentist makes $500/hr

did you see a major discrepancy, and so can you relate to an entire community who will never access a profession such a dentist

there is stats avail that shows that poor people are unable to access some profession

and instead of coming up with alternatives to enhance people lives we shuffle them into senarios of where they belong - the poor amongst the poor

[maplesyrup]

Cartman...maybe this is the way to do it. It is a novel approach and I like it. If "male whitey" thinks he has had problems resolving the land claim disputes in BC, he ain't seen nothing yet.

Bold Goal: 250 First Nations PhDs in Five Years

[RB]

thanks for that article maplesyrup, i have archived it for my own use.

anyway, it is a very bold agenda - i wondered how committed they would be in making sure there is a follow though

until recently i have never met a "designated" first nation person, but i am happy to disclosed that i am taking a course currently where the professor is of native indian status

of course she had her agenda similar to the other professors, so i have been updated and bombarded with information of first nations recently - i didn't mind because it really shed some light and experiences of the extinct faces you never see in the media, textbooks, or even public places i mean they are on the reserves still - the forgotten folks

she tells of the difficulties encountered on her quest for PhD - having limited access and resources are major barriers, she is the only member of her family, and indian circles to enter into university thus far and she didn't get started until in her thirties - she still has loans outstanding >60k

these are folks who have been screwed more than twice -so this good news is something positive

your article will make for an interesting discussion