On Guard for Thee Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I don't really see that as working to carry out Senate duties, but high 5 on the absent Harper comment! I hope he's scoped himself out a cushy international job somewhere. . Or perhaps he could appoint himself to the senate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 What part of what I said makes you think it's about separate colonies? NB, NS, and PEI were all separate colonies at confederation. The colonies didn't get equal representation in the senate. The regions did because of their shared economies and culture. BC has a shared economy and culture with the Prairie provinces? The rocky mountains make that quite difficult. So anyway, what point are you trying to make? That we should reform the senate so that provinces get equal representation? My point is that the distribution of senate seats is completely arbitrary. Even if you make it by province, the existence of provinces is purely arbitrary. If a few things happened differently in the past, they might have drew different lines on a map. If it's about representation of regions, it shouldn't be based on these arbitrary 'region' or 'province' constructs. It should be something objective such as land mass. "why doesn't vancouver island have senators?" It does. Strawman argument. I never claimed Vancouver island doesn't have senators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 It would be nice if we could discover a better way to achieve regional interests. I have a way to achieve regional interests. Let's give different regions local governments that can make some laws to represent the local population. We can call these governments 'Provincial Governments'. Oh wait, they already exist. In addition, give every province the option to leave Canada if they don't like it (be it Quebec, Alberta, whatever). For one, it's immoral to keep a country together against the will of the people, and secondly it means that if a province feels absolutely screwed over they have the option to leave; thus the federal government has to try to keep all of the provinces satisfied or they country breaks up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 "Citizens" never take a long-term view. Citizens are short-term, me-first, knee-jerk animals. Okay, maybe not "never", but "rarely".Not all of us, and not in a properly constructed situation. Note the idea of having some citizens rotate in and out of the Senate while other Senators remain in linger term positions. That is why we elect or appoint knowledgeable people with time on their hands to do the necessary research for us. Right now, they need a little slap to the side of their head to remind them why they are there. Once that is accomplished, we will be good to go. I think there's a lot of momentum behind Senate abolishment/reform. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Or perhaps he could appoint himself to the senate. ? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 My point is that the distribution of senate seats is completely arbitrary. Even if you make it by province, the existence of provinces is purely arbitrary. If a few things happened differently in the past, they might have drew different lines on a map. If it's about representation of regions, it shouldn't be based on these arbitrary 'region' or 'province' constructs. It should be something objective such as land mass.Those regions exist because those provinces agreed to and identified themselves as part of those regions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Those regions exist because those provinces agreed to and identified themselves as part of those regions. And now that's a historic relic. There are 10 equal provinces. The Senate should balance sovereign political entities, as it does in the US. Edited June 14, 2015 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 And now that's a historic relic. There are 10 equal provinces. The Senate should balance sovereign political entities, as it does in the US. Equal in what way...certainly not economically, nor in terms of population. Balancing power regardless of those realities is what the senate was founded to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Equal in what way...certainly not economically, nor in terms of population. Balancing power regardless of those realities is what the senate was founded to do. And it doesn't do that. Each province is of equal value and power within Confederation. Each Crown in equal. They should be equally represented in the Senate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 And it doesn't do that. Each province is of equal value and power within Confederation. Each Crown in equal. They should be equally represented in the Senate. You actually think PEI is equal to Ontario... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 You actually think PEI is equal to Ontario... In terms of it's existence as a partner in Confederation, yes. That's the point of the Senate - to balance the concerns of the provinces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) In terms of it's existence as a partner in Confederation, yes. That's the point of the Senate - to balance the concerns of the provinces. Well of the regions actually, but it seems you are starting to get it. Thats why it was constructed so as to not be rep by pop. Edited June 14, 2015 by On Guard for Thee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Well of the regions actually, but it seems you are starting to get it. I understand it far better than you, I assure you. The regions are a meaningless creation of compromise. The provinces may be just as meaningless, but, the different is they are actually legal sovereign entities within Canadian Confederation: The fact that Ontario has 90 times as many people as Prince Edward Island does not derogate from this fundamental federal principle. Indeed, nearly every federal parliament has an upper house that gives equal representation to member states or provinces regardless of their populations. In the U.S.A., California has 30 times the population of Rhode Island. In Australia, New South Wales has 40 times the population of the Northern Territory. In Brazil, Sao Paulo has 115 times the population of Roraima. Yet these federations, plus Switzerland, South Africa and others, give equal representation to member provinces or states in the upper houses of their federal parliaments. http://www.revparl.ca/english/issue.asp?param=200&art=1409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) I understand it far better than you, I assure you. The regions are a meaningless creation of compromise. The provinces may be just as meaningless, but, the different is they are actually legal sovereign entities within Canadian Confederation: Why would you think you understand it far better than OGTF? Edited June 14, 2015 by WestCoastRunner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) I understand it far better than you, I assure you. The regions are a meaningless creation of compromise. The provinces may be just as meaningless, but, the different is they are actually legal sovereign entities within Canadian Confederation: The fact that Ontario has 90 times as many people as Prince Edward Island does not derogate from this fundamental federal principle. Indeed, nearly every federal parliament has an upper house that gives equal representation to member states or provinces regardless of their populations. In the U.S.A., California has 30 times the population of Rhode Island. In Australia, New South Wales has 40 times the population of the Northern Territory. In Brazil, Sao Paulo has 115 times the population of Roraima. Yet these federations, plus Switzerland, South Africa and others, give equal representation to member provinces or states in the upper houses of their federal parliaments. http://www.revparl.ca/english/issue.asp?param=200&art=1409 Apparently you dont as you seem to be going in circles. The senate was created to counterbalance rep by pop. Thats about as simple as I can make it. Edited June 14, 2015 by On Guard for Thee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Why would you think you understand it far better than OGTF? I've read more than one book on the subject. Canada's system of government has been an interest of mine for a very long time. Apparently you dont as you seem to be going in circles. The senate was created to counterbalance rep by pop. Thats about as simple as I can make it. And it doesn't do that very well. That's what I've said over and over again, yet you think you're making a point by telling me that. That tells me all I need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I've read more than one book on the subject. Canada's system of government has been an interest of mine for a very long time. And it doesn't do that very well. That's what I've said over and over again, yet you think you're making a point by telling me that. That tells me all I need to know. It was also to offset the far more robust economic clout that Ontario as well as Quebec had at the time vis a vis other regions. So now I have told you even more you should know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 It was also to offset the far more robust economic clout that Ontario as well as Quebec had at the time vis a vis other regions. So now I have told you even more you should know. Yes Ontario and Quebec command pluralities in both houses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Yes Ontario and Quebec command pluralities in both houses. Thats correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Equal in what way...certainly not economically, nor in terms of population. Balancing power regardless of those realities is what the senate was founded to do. British Columbia has over 163 times the landmass of PEI and over 31 times the population of PEI. Yet only has 6 seats to the 4 of PEI. Doesn't seem very balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 British Columbia has over 163 times the landmass of PEI and over 31 times the population of PEI. Yet only has 6 seats to the 4 of PEI. Doesn't seem very balanced. What the hell do you think landmass has to do with it... as has been explained numerous times, the senate was setup to counterbalance rep by pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 What the hell do you think landmass has to do with it... as has been explained numerous times, the senate was setup to counterbalance rep by pop. And is based on these arbitrary 'regions'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 And is based on these arbitrary 'regions'. So you havent heard Canadians talk about the west, the maritimes, central Canada, the territories...if you have travelled the country much you would realize its not arbitrary at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Thats correct. And they shouldn't. The Senate should balance the provinces, or at least come far closer. The original regional separations are very arbitrary today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 What the hell do you think landmass has to do with it... as has been explained numerous times, the senate was setup to counterbalance rep by pop. But it doesn't do that today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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