Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

Smallc · June 14, 2015

Well, I have certainly tried to take this conversation further by asking posters why they question FN's statements and I have yet to hear credible responses except that they are only looking for a payout.

I question anyone who suddenly comes forward when there's money involved. We're talking about 100s of thousands of dollars in compensation to a single individual. I should know, as I cashed many of the cheques.

Scott Mayers · June 14, 2015

There are many first hand accounts of what happened to them is those schools. Nothing secondary about it.They are not blind people wondering about the moon. We have court cases every day were witnesses testify about what occurred in certain events. Theses schools operated for over a century, affecting some 150000 children, of which there are tens of thousands still alive. It should be no surprise that we are still hearing victims first hand accounts of the abuse.

"They are not blind people..."

No, but WE are as the blind person since we are unable to assert the event by observing it or other hard evidence. You can't tell me that you simply believe in whatever story anyone tells of some event, can you?

And the biggest point that I and others are arguing here is that if so many people have been abused, there should at least be one particular person at least accused of a crime. Also, these accusations are NOT something that can escape criminal prosecution upon negotiating them away through class action suites. Unless a crime has been charged and brought to court upon the individuals who did the abuse, there is NO crimes.

Edit addition: Billions of people claim to have witnessed God throughout time. Are all these people telling the truth?

Edited June 14, 2015 by Scott Mayers

On Guard for Thee · June 14, 2015

"They are not blind people..."

No, but WE are as the blind person since we are unable to assert the event by observing it or other hard evidence. You can't tell me that you simply believe in whatever story anyone tells of some event, can you?

And the biggest point that I and others are arguing here is that if so many people have been abused, there should at least be one particular person at least accused of a crime. Also, these accusations are NOT something that can escape criminal prosecution upon negotiating them away through class action suites. Unless a crime has been charged and brought to court upon the individuals who did the abuse, there is NO crimes.

Edit addition: Billions of people claim to have witnessed God throughout time. Are all these people telling the truth?

As has been previously pointed out here, there are documented cases (many) of the abuses that occurred. And BTW, Your little edit addition only serves to undermine any chance of being taken seriously.

Canada_First · June 14, 2015

I find it foolish to believe anything, anyone says, ever.

What makes the FN people so credible and beyond lying for money?

Why are we believing all of these stories at face value without empirical proof?

TimG · June 14, 2015

I have yet to hear credible responses except that they are only looking for a payout.

All I said is there is huge amount of social pressure with FN communities to exaggerate the extent of the abuse because residential schools are a convenient way to excuse all kinds of anti-social behavior and blame the "government" instead taking responsibility for their own choices. In many cases people may be telling the truth, as they remember it, but memory is notoriously unreliable and it is not enough to draw conclusions based on memory alone. Edited June 14, 2015 by TimG

WestCoastRunner · June 14, 2015

All I said is there is huge amount of social pressure with FN communities to exaggerate the extent of the abuse because residential schools are a convenient way to excuse all kinds of anti-social behavior and blame the "government" instead taking responsibility for their own choices. In many cases people may be telling the truth, as they remember it, but memory is notoriously unreliable and it is not enough to draw conclusions simply based the assumption that someone thinks they are accurately recalling events.

If you are not a lawyer for the govt, you should let these victims testify to their abuses so they can heal and move on and if there are a few discovered who are not truthful, so what. They will be in the minority. We should apologize and compensate for those who have suffered.

Edited June 14, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

On Guard for Thee · June 14, 2015

All I said is there is huge amount of social pressure with FN communities to exaggerate the extent of the abuse because residential schools are a convenient way to excuse all kinds of anti-social behavior and blame the "government" instead taking responsibility for their own choices. In many cases people may be telling the truth, as they remember it, but memory is notoriously unreliable and it is not enough to draw conclusions based on memory alone.

OK, get someone to stick a pin through your tongue the next time you speak English and lets see how long it takes the memory of it to fade.

TimG · June 14, 2015

if there are a few discovered who are not truthful, so what. They will be in the minority.

Based on what logic? Given the way this entire issue has been politicized I would say that a majority of people would feel compelled to exaggerate what occurred. Also, when people share experiences there are cases where people adopt someone else's experience as their own. Especially, when they want to empathize. Overtime, these "memories" become fixed and the person repeating them is absolutely convinced they are true personal experiences.

This phenomena has been studied:

http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2013/neuroscientists-plant-false-memories-in-the-brain-0725

In a step toward understanding how these faulty memories arise, MIT neuroscientists have shown that they can plant false memories in the brains of mice. They also found that many of the neurological traces of these memories are identical in nature to those of authentic memories.

So sorry, you cannot claim that a majority of these stories must be true. Some of them are likely true but without independent evidence we have no way to determine how many are actually true. Edited June 14, 2015 by TimG

Smallc · June 14, 2015

OK, get someone to stick a pin through your tongue the next time you speak English and lets see how long it takes the memory of it to fade.

That kind of thing was a common practice used against anyone speaking a non english language, not just aboriginals. That's why so many older Ukrainian-Canadians find the compensation for aboriginals to be an insult.

On Guard for Thee · June 14, 2015

That kind of thing was a common practice used against anyone speaking a non english language, not just aboriginals. That's why so many older Ukrainian-Canadians find the compensation for aboriginals to be an insult.

The actual point was to ask if you think you think your eory of such an occasion would somehow muddle in your mind.

Smallc · June 14, 2015

The actual point was to ask if you think you think your eory of such an occasion would somehow muddle in your mind.

In general, memory is very unreliable.

On Guard for Thee · June 14, 2015

In general, memory is very unreliable.

OFGS, stick that pin in your tongue and see how quickly your memory fades. Wondering where you left your keys is a tad different wouldn't you think.

Smallc · June 14, 2015

OFGS, stick that pin in your tongue and see how quickly your memory fades.

The memory will be impacted by the trauma of the incident.

Canada_First · June 14, 2015

What makes these FN people stories of abuse credible?

Scott Mayers · June 14, 2015

As has been previously pointed out here, there are documented cases (many) of the abuses that occurred. And BTW, Your little edit addition only serves to undermine any chance of being taken seriously.

You nor anyone supporting your belief has yet to take on the challenge of presenting any hard evidence. If you cannot defend your belief, I take you less serious here.

And, no, demanding that others go elsewhere to read the supposed claims is not enough. Give us a teaser other than testimonials. Tell us one case and name of someone who abused, charged, and convicted. This is a simple request since I'm sure you are the wiser one who has read the whole reports and so can point out just such evidence!

cybercoma · June 14, 2015

Sure, it's a reasonable guess as to the person's motivations

I said nothing about motivations. I pointed to biased and inconsistent arguments.

it inevitably leads to the spiral of I'm not racist/yes you are.

Sure, it leads to this because people don't like facing the uncomfortable truth of their privilege.

There are other ways it could go: ask why these cases are different, let others explain their beliefs based on facts. There have been a few posts that have shown that criminal charges happened, so the assertion that 'nothing happened' can't reasonably be made IMO.

They don't need explanation. Their thinking is fallacious and the arguments are damaging to people. This kind of thinking has real life consequences. Humouring these arguments as if they're valid is not the way to go.

If you base it on facts rather than motivations, it just seems to me that you can take the conversation farther. Personally, I'm intrigued to find out what principles people hold, and whether they can stay with those principles when the political topography pivots around them.

Again, you're the one talking about motivations, not me. I pointed to inconsistent and flawed arguments and pointing out that they're racist or misogynistic expresses the harm that those arguments cause. Whether people want to own up to that or not is on them. I don't care what their motivations are. As far as I'm concerned, they don't mean to be racist/misogynistic and when shown that their arguments are, they will take a moment to reflect and realize how their arguments are harmful. That people here don't and double down on them is their choice, but then they shouldn't be surprised that they're called racist/misogynistic when they double down on those arguments and opinions.

cybercoma · June 14, 2015

That kind of thing was a common practice used against anyone speaking a non english language, not just aboriginals. That's why so many older Ukrainian-Canadians find the compensation for aboriginals to be an insult.

It doesn't make it any better that it also happened to Ukrainians who came here. It also doesn't make it better that Deaf children had their hands smashed with rulers if they signed to one another in Deaf residential schools.

What it does it point to a systematic attempt to destroy other cultures by government operated institutions across the country.

And if you think this is simply about being forced not to speak your native language and isn't a culmination of all the other atrocities committed against first nations, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Ukrainians were brought to Canada and literally handed fertile farmland in order to settle the West. Land that once belonged to the First Nations who were driven into nearly barren reserves. So to say Ukrainians are insulted by First Nations demand for compensation is a bit rich.

cybercoma · June 14, 2015

The memory will be impacted by the trauma of the incident.

So now the incidents are traumatic. Well at least that's a step towards actually acknowledging the trauma.

Smallc · June 14, 2015

And if you think this is simply about being forced not to speak your native language and isn't a culmination of all the other atrocities committed against first nations, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Ukrainians were brought to Canada and literally handed fertile farmland in order to settle the West. Land that once belonged to the First Nations who were driven into nearly barren reserves. So to say Ukrainians are insulted by First Nations demand for compensation is a bit rich.

Now you've decided that some groups of mistreated people's are more privileged and that what happened to them really didn't count. hypocrisy much? I forgot, they aren't brown enough to count.

Smallc · June 14, 2015

So now the incidents are traumatic. Well at least that's a step towards actually acknowledging the trauma.

I never said that such events didn't happen. I said that such events may have been more rare and often less serious, given that there was money on the line.

jacee · June 14, 2015

Now you've decided that some groups of mistreated people's are more privileged and that what happened to them really didn't count. hypocrisy much? I forgot, they aren't brown enough ...

Did Ukrainians get an apology yet?

It was nasty.

Did they lose land?

I don't think it was on the same scale as for Indigenous Peoples.

.

Edited June 14, 2015 by jacee

Argus · June 14, 2015

how do we know for sure that all those people are telling the truth? I wouldn't put it past some to lie so they can get a large settlement whenever the govt decides to pay out.

I'm sure some of them are lying, as they did before to get part of the settlement. I'm sure others are being truthful, though.

Argus · June 14, 2015

The questioning of FN's statements is clearly based on racism

As far as I've been able to determine, you think almost everything is based on racism.

jacee · June 14, 2015

"They are not blind people..."

No, but WE are as the blind person since we are unable to assert the event by observing it or other hard evidence. You can't tell me that you simply believe in whatever story anyone tells of some event, can you?

And the biggest point that I and others are arguing here is that if so many people have been abused, there should at least be one particular person at least accused of a crime. Also, these accusations are NOT something that can escape criminal prosecution upon negotiating them away through class action suites. Unless a crime has been charged and brought to court upon the individuals who did the abuse, there is NO crimes.

You haven't even bothered to look that up yet?

<sigh>

The police wouldn't release those records to the TRC.

Court case to follow.

.

Edited June 14, 2015 by jacee

Argus · June 14, 2015

Why aren't other victims of sexual assault from the catholic church or nhl players being accused of lying for personal gain. It seems that the FN victims are being singled.

In any large scale case where hundreds of people are invited to come forward and receive compensation you are going to get people making stuff up, especially since they don't have to offer up any kind of proof.