Derek 2.0 Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 No, it doesn't. The reduction is violence is true throughout the western world. Sorry, but your logic impervious arguments don't fly. Exactly, gun control or gun rights, plays little into violent crime rates within any jurisdiction.........if that was not the case, Mexico or Brazil would have less gun crime than Canada, and New Zealand would have similar rates of gun crimes as the United States....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Apparently, since the significant drop is also true in similar countries with similar demographics and no similar program. Furthered by increases in gun sales by Australians........Australia and New Zealand have similar gun crimes rates, yet in New Zealand, one can not only own semi-autos, but full automatics, silencers and crew serviced machine guns....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Furthered by increases in gun sales by Australians........Australia and New Zealand have similar gun crimes rates, yet in New Zealand, one can not only own semi-autos, but full automatics, silencers and crew serviced machine guns....... That seems kinda goofy to me. I can see plenty of downside to allowing such things, but I'm flummoxed by what the upside would be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 That seems kinda goofy to me. I can see plenty of downside to allowing such things, but I'm flummoxed by what the upside would be... And you can see downsides only because of social conditioning.......The current laws in New Zealand, much like ours, require a license (with criminal and mental health checks), but once approved, if someone so wishes to own a AK-47 with an integrated silencer or a crew serviced WW II Nazi machine gun , they can have at her.......If they're not criminals, nor kooks, and use their firearms safely, in actual fact, what real concern is it of you (or the State)? Canadians of course were also once afforded such rights, now only a very few have such grandfathered endorsements on their licence (12.2 and 12.3 license), this of course changed with the Firearms Act, despite (AFAIK) there not being a single instance of a legally obtained automatic firearm ever being used in a crime in Canada........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 And you can see downsides only because of social conditioning.......The current laws in New Zealand, much like ours, require a license (with criminal and mental health checks), but once approved, if someone so wishes to own a AK-47 with an integrated silencer or a crew serviced WW II Nazi machine gun , they can have at her.......If they're not criminals, nor kooks, and use their firearms safely, in actual fact, what real concern is it of you (or the State)? Gee, where should I start? To begin with, as we've seen from Germany, it's very difficult to state when someone is going to become mentally unbalanced, or even if they are now. Second, such things can be stolen. An AK-47 with a silencer? Really? Third, as I stated above, while I can see plenty of potential downside to society in such things being commonly available I fail to see the upside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Gee, where should I start? To begin with, as we've seen from Germany, it's very difficult to state when someone is going to become mentally unbalanced, or even if they are now. Second, such things can be stolen. An AK-47 with a silencer? Really? Third, as I stated above, while I can see plenty of potential downside to society in such things being commonly available I fail to see the upside. They are quite handy for school shootings. You can take out half those classmates that pissed you off without even having to change mags. Just borrow one from your mother if you dont have your own yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Gee, where should I start? To begin with, as we've seen from Germany, it's very difficult to state when someone is going to become mentally unbalanced, or even if they are now. But, the German doctor did see signs of mental illness.......privacy rights prevented said information from going any further......Of course, in Canada and New Zealand, for licensed gun owners, such rights to privacy are waived as (what I find) a reasonable accommodation. Second, such things can be stolen. An AK-47 with a silencer? Really? Hence safe storage laws in both countries..........of course such things can also be stolen from police or military inventories, or smuggled into the country and sold to criminal elements. Despite this, New Zealand police are mostly unarmed and the country as a whole doesn't have a "gun violence" problem........ Third, as I stated above, while I can see plenty of potential downside to society in such things being commonly available I fail to see the upside. Thats your opinion.......of course some could say the same for sports car/bikes, speed boats, ATVs etc, all things that kill far more Canadians and New Zealanders then automatic weapons annually......... Hence the reasonable expectations of some rules governing their ownership and use........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochy Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 They are quite handy for school shootings. You can take out half those classmates that pissed you off without even having to change mags. Just borrow one from your mother if you dont have your own yet. its the sexy choice, but no more effective than a semi or pump 12 ga in close quarters, the firearm is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 its the sexy choice, but no more effective than a semi or pump 12 ga in close quarters, the firearm is irrelevant. The firearm is extremely relevant. If you have to reload between firings it takes a lot longer to create an equal amount of carnage than if you can just keep pulling the trigger, or heaven forbid, just keep the trigger held down. That extra time could well allow security to get on scene and shut the shooter down and save lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 The firearm is extremely relevant. If you have to reload between firings it takes a lot longer to create an equal amount of carnage than if you can just keep pulling the trigger, or heaven forbid, just keep the trigger held down. That extra time could well allow security to get on scene and shut the shooter down and save lives. A 12 gauge in close quarters doesn't need many shots. It's much easier to hit someone with than a machine gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 A 12 gauge in close quarters doesn't need many shots. It's much easier to hit someone with than a machine gun. I am quite familiar with guns. If I was going to try and kill a lot of people quick I want an AR 15 with as a 30 round mag, definitely not a friggin 12 guage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I am quite familiar with guns. If I was going to try and kill a lot of people quick I want an AR 15 with as a 30 round mag, definitely not a friggin 12 guage. Then you don't know guns that well. What you would use would depend entirely on the situation and the distances involved. If you're walking into a classroom and everyone is going to be within 40 feet of you, a machine gun is not the best choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Then you don't know guns that well. What you would use would depend entirely on the situation and the distances involved. If you're walking into a classroom and everyone is going to be within 40 feet of you, a machine gun is not the best choice. Yeah I know guns pretty well. How many troops do you see walking around war zones with shotguns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 A 12 gauge in close quarters doesn't need many shots. It's much easier to hit someone with than a machine gun. Exactly, and is why a pump action shotgun is the most reliable and effective weapon for home defense, likewise why police forces and armed forces around the World utilize shotguns for close quarter battle...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I am quite familiar with guns. If I was going to try and kill a lot of people quick I want an AR 15 with as a 30 round mag, definitely not a friggin 12 guage. A 6-shot 12 gauge, loaded with 00 buck, will put 54 .33 caliber projectiles, with a terminal velocity of over 1500 ft/lbs, downrange faster than an a AR-15's 30 .22 caliber projectiles with a velocity of 12-1300 ft/lbs..............people survive gunshots from .223/5.56mm from a AR-15s/M-16s/M4s.......not so much a single load of buckshot square to the chest.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yeah I know guns pretty well. How many troops do you see walking around war zones with shotguns. One in each modern rifle squad typically........Bin Laden was killed by a SEAL's shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Then you don't know guns that well. What you would use would depend entirely on the situation and the distances involved. If you're walking into a classroom and everyone is going to be within 40 feet of you, a machine gun is not the best choice. Exactly, fully automatic and burst fire weapons are used for area suppression in combat......aimed shots are still typically from the selector placed in semi-auto......despite what movies, tv and video games depict, soldiers don't have endless supplies of ammo, likewise most modern combat rifles (M-16s, AK-47s, M-14s etc), after sustained automatic fire, will suffer permanent barrel damage and can overheat and cause rounds to cook-off in the chamber/magazine (with the M-16 platform, this poses a danger after the ~120+ cyclic round mark). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 One in each modern rifle squad typically........Bin Laden was killed by a SEAL's shotgun. Nope. He was killed by an HK416. And when I was roaming around Afghanistan I didnt see a lot of US troops carrying shotguns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nope. He was killed by an HK416. And when I was roaming around Afghanistan I didnt see a lot of US troops carrying shotguns. Nope........you're regaling a false and often repeated tale proven false...........And your gun spying skills leave lots to be desired....do you remember several members, that don't claim to know much at all about guns, correcting you in the Moncton thread, in which you claimed the shooter to be carrying two "assault rifles", even though its clear as day (and later proven) that he carried a main battle rifle and a shotgun......we can revisit the thread if you like? M4s, 870s and Mossberg 500 shotguns are in the inventory of all the NATO partner nations involved in combat in Afghanistan.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nope........you're regaling a false and often repeated tale proven false...........And your gun spying skills leave lots to be desired....do you remember several members, that don't claim to know much at all about guns, correcting you in the Moncton thread, in which you claimed the shooter to be carrying two "assault rifles", even though its clear as day (and later proven) that he carried a main battle rifle and a shotgun......we can revisit the thread if you like? M4s, 870s and Mossberg 500 shotguns are in the inventory of all the NATO partner nations involved in combat in Afghanistan.. Proven false by who...you wouldnt likely have had to shoot USB, or anybody, twice if you used a shotgun. I may have seen a shotgun or two in Afg., but not very often. Lots of M4s and some 50cal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Proven false by who...you wouldnt likely have had to shoot USB, or anybody, twice if you used a shotgun. I may have seen a shotgun or two in Afg., but not very often. Lots of M4s and some 50cal. US Department of Defense...........As it turned out, the author who penned the Bin Laden raid book was never there, and most, if not all of the SEALS that were, died soon after in a helicopter crash......... ----- As said, and pointed out by others, your ability to identify shotguns (or any firearms) is in doubt due to your own words....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 US Department of Defense...........As it turned out, the author who penned the Bin Laden raid book was never there, and most, if not all of the SEALS that were, died soon after in a helicopter crash......... ----- As said, and pointed out by others, your ability to identify shotguns (or any firearms) is in doubt due to your own words....... Boy have you got your facts f,ed up. And yeah I know the difference between a shotgun and a rifle. May I suggest an educational visit to Moyock. The BlackBear Inn isnt luxurious, but the food is excellent, as is the training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 And yeah I know the difference between a shotgun and a rifle. May I suggest an educational visit to Moyock. The BlackBear Inn isnt luxurious, but the food is excellent, as is the training. So you've said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 So you've said Have you actually ever been in a war zone...somehow I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) On Guard the fact you are comparing a war zone to a police operation and encounter with a civilian or between to civilians says a lot about your misunderstanding of what Derek and SmallC are trying to explain to you. Police officers are not soldiers. Comparing operations in the field with an enemy and a soldier and police is just down right stupid. I defer to soldiers and police and very professional hunters on weapons. All of them will tell you a shot gun is the most lethal, is not a toy, and most people who think they know how to use them don't appreciate their power and recoil. By the way the most deadly weapon up close is a knife or your own hands if you know how to use either not a gun of any kind. In fact most people hesitate when they shoot or freeze and can't shoot and in that hesitation or paralysis the gun can be turned against them so it really doesn't matter what gun it is. Edited March 30, 2015 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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