Is anti-Zionism really anti-Semitism?

[Hudson Jones]

The above makes no sense. Its incoherent. How do I misrepresent for myself. What does that mean.

Marcus when you make an allegation back it up. You claim I misrepresented someone, provide the misrepresentation.

Everyone just saw this happen. You are full of contradictions.

Not only do you misrepresent people, but you also misrepresent your own position.

Ghosthacked posted a link where you did this. It's right there for everyone to see.

[eyeball]

No you want to make it personal and I will ignore you when you do.

Whatever you say chief. Don't leave pissed off when I piss all over your pancakes, just leave.

[jacee]

Jacee I asked you directly, do you believe Jews have a right to a Jewish state of Israel.

You refused to answer.

Lies and BS Rue.

You know exactly what my answer to that is.

I assume the rest of your spinning and twisting and ranting is likewise not worth reading.

.

Edited January 22, 2015 by jacee

[Rue]

Jacee calling me names won't detract from the fact you have no passage where I called you an anti semite,let alone an anti semite only because you criticized Israel state policy.

Likewise calling me names won't detract from the fact that you refuse to state Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state so you can call me all the names you want what you have demonstrated is that when I ask you to back up your allegations you don't but instead call me names.

What is your answer-its simple yes or no to the question, do you believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state. A yes or a no? You won't answer.

Stop calling ne names and insulting me and just answer the question or move on.

[Rue]

Eye the response from you again does not deal with any issues being debated. It speaks for itself. The nyah nyah I know you are but what am I response is pointless and at this point all you have done on this demonstrate is to call me names and not respond to any issues.

So please continue with the pancakes.

[Rue]

Hudson Jones who is EVERYONE. Why is it when you respond to me you need to describe yourself as a plural? See it makes me wonder are you in fact also Marcus and Eye or not? Do you use more than on name on this forum or do you mean you speak on behalf of the entire forum when you respond to me?

Are you that full of yourself Hudson that you believe your statements speak on behalf of the universe or world , i.e., EVERYONE?

Go on finish what you started or have "Ghost" if he is not you finish what he started. Take the words you claim I contradicted myself with, place them on this board and show how I contradicted myself. I asked Ghost to do it and he has not. Now you have repeated his allegation now speaking on behalf of the world repeating his allegation but again providing no words. The words on page 5 I have stated do not show I called anyone an anti semite simply because they criticized Israel. Go on show where they did. In fact they did the exact opposite. They clearly explained why I do not call someone an anti semite simply for criticizing Israel but only if the comments then go further to criticize Jews as a people or the Jewish religion in a way that is hateful or breeds or incites resentment,

At this point HJ, whether its you, Eye, Ghost,Jacee Guyser who respond to me, just keep in mind you are not everyone you are just a few posters and none of you to date have backed up any allegations you have made.

Now provide me a post where I called someone an anti semite simply because they criticized Israel and I am still waiting for you to explain your methodology for how you determined when a Jew believes they should express themselves through a state collective identity that belief is cancerous?

Please provide the method in which you diagnosed the cancer.

You see HJ you can come on this board and make all the allegations you want that Zionists have cancerous thoughts and make generalization as to how evil all Zionists are, how evil all Israelis are, how evil all Israeli soldiers are, I will challenge you for your sweeping generalizations and I really don't care if I see the name Eye, Marcus, Jacee, HJ, Guyser, those names for all I know may be the same person, but you certainly are not everyone, and to date as this thread has shown you have all have tried to engage me personally, failed, and have been unable to provide one example of anyone calling someone an anti-Semite simply because they criticized Israeli state policy.

You HJ provided a comment alleging the above was being done and Eye repeated it like an echo, but none of you have given one example its been done, you just throw the allegation out with zero proof and ask people to just assume your accusation is true with zero proof.

That's not debating to me, that is trolling. That is not debating to me, that's using this forum to name call and then refuse to debate after you name call.

As I said HJ its easy to come on this board and make subjective negative accusations about Zionists, Jews, Israelis, designed to incite hatred or resentment of them by demonizing them or portraying them as genocidal or getting special treatment by Charlie Hebdo or French society, its another thing to prove it and the problem is the more you respond to me HJ the more you make your inability to back up your allegations, clear as clear can be.

Everyone. Yah I got it HJ. Now you are not just "people" you have promoted yourself to "everyone".

Lol.

[Rue]

Again bringingthis topic back to the original thesis, HJ provided a subjective comment where the writer accused all Europeans and settler colonial extensions (whatever the hell that means because it was not defined) to have been duped by Zionist acrobatics (whatever that means because that was never defined) which the writer claimed fool these Europeans and settler colonial extensions into believing people who criticize Israel are anti semites.

I pointed out the comment was ridiculous because;

I- it made an allegation with no proof or examples of the allegations;

2-generalized to the point where it became absurd by claiming ALL Europeans and settler colonial extensions all were under the same Zionist spell again with no proof or evidence that this spell or mind control was in effect and being practiced;

3-did not define what Zionist acrobatics are, let alone how they can mind control people and why they only mind controlled Europeans and settler colonial extensions. ( quere: are people from Tonga settler colonial extensions?)

I responded clearly on page 5 of this thread why not all criticism of Israel is anti semitic but how it can turn anti semitic,

I then had 4responses (Jacee, Eye,Ghost,Marcus,) that accused me personally of having called people anti-Semitic simply because they criticized Israeli state policies and so I asked these "four" people to produce the words from me where I did that.

To date no words proving their allegations and in fact one accuser Jacee presented a response to my asking her to provide words where I called her an anti semite that had nothing to do with calling her an anti-Semite at all.

In summary, this thread is about the original allegation not me.. The original llegation has yet to be been proven or established.

The device of switching that accusation to allegations against me of calling people anti semites simply because they criticize Israel as HJ and Eye and Jacee and Ghost have done, has not provided any proof of the original allegation or the subsequent allegations against me but has clearly demonstrated whether the original allegation was directed at Europeans and settler colonial extensions or then at me, zero proof by example of this accusation could be provided.

So I of course await specific proof of the methodology that was used to determine how Europeans and settler colonial extensions were brought under uniform mind control by ZIonist acrobats, who the Zionist acrobats are and what techniques they used.

I would also be quite pleased "Everyone" as HJ calls himself now with me, or anyone for that matter, were to provide me specific words from me where I called someone an anti semite only because they criticized Israel.

I won't hold my breath.

Have a nice day "everyone".

Edited January 22, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Yes you do. Until you do you lack any credibility. Anyone can make an allegation without a basis.

Also can you at least try provide a quote of mine that backs up your allegation and does not contradict it. That might help as well.

I am trying not to make this personal or about you Rue, but in this case I have to.

Here is the problem with your argument and the reason I (and others) cannot get through to you.

Many times people have gone after Israeli policies (settlements issue being one). However with the contention that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state, there is no way one can argue against Israeli policy without being called an anti-semite. You seem to hold the view that being a Zionist, a Jew and or an Israeli is one in the same. I tried to differentiate between them and STILL got called an anti-semit from you. But then even you agree that there is a difference. So which is it?

You simply won't allow the separation of Zionist from Israeli from Jew. You can't. You've accused many of being anti-semetic claiming their challenges on Israeli policies are a veiled attempt to hide one's antisemitism. You not just accused me of it, you have accused MANY. I will say HJ has a beef with Israel and well, you need to go after HJ instead of going after everyone that wants to debate this topic with some form of civility. However you have a problem with civility as well.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24074-surprise-israel-refuses-cooperation-with-un-gaza-war-probe/page-5?hl=semite

Its easy to come on this forum for some of you and chime in with the anti Jewish comments passing as anti Israeli comments.

I thought it was anti-Israeli comments passing off as anti-Jewish comments?

How is it not both Ghost?

This reminds me of the crap I used to go through with DogonPorch. Constant misrepresentation of one's words. Each time you try and make it personal and attack someone. Each time you call out posters in your comments and berate them. Each time you go off on rants that are disjointed and downright rude. I'd ask you to stop, but that would be pointless.

So let's settle this matter here. Am I an anti-semite, or not? A simple yes or no would be appreciated. Once we clear this up then we might be able to have grown up dialogue on this matter, otherwise, you are simply trolling.

I'll be in the cooler.

[Hudson Jones]

Hudson Jones who is EVERYONE.

Everyone in this thread who is reading your contradictions and misrepresentation and commenting on it. I'm not the only one. Others are calling you on it and providing you examples while you sit there denying it.

The first step towards bettering yourself is admitting to the problem that you have. Your resistance and denial of the obvious is not going to get you anywhere.

[Rue]

Everyone in this thread who is reading your contradictions and misrepresentation and commenting on it. I'm not the only one. Others are calling you on it and providing you examples while you sit there denying it.

The first step towards bettering yourself is admitting to the problem that you have. Your resistance and denial of the obvious is not going to get you anywhere.

Once again you refer to yourself as Everyone. So what are you calling me on HJ? What contradiction or misrepresentation/ You have never provided one.

You have yet to provide one word from me to establish any point you claim to be making.

HJ you started this thread to accuse anyone who challenges someone on Israel to use the anti semitic card, then you failed to provide one example.

Then you have tried to suggest I do it and have failed to prove one example.

Its what you do HJ make allegations then show you are unable to back them up with any basis.

Go on provide one sentence from me where I accused you of being anti semitic simply because you criticized Israel.

I will state this though again crystal clear-I believe your comment that ZIonism is cancerous is hateful, designed to incite hatred against anyone who supports Israel and is designed to insult Jews and call them a malignancy for believing they have a right to live in a Jewish state and I have explaiend clearly why in the other thread.

You of course to date will not provide your methodology for concluding the belief by Jews that they should express their collective identity through a sttae is cancerous. You threw it out as a subjective insult in my opinion, a clear insult, and this is why you can't prove it. Its not based on anything other than your personal bias.

[Rue]

Everyone in this thread who is reading your contradictions and misrepresentation and commenting on it. I'm not the only one. Others are calling you on it and providing you examples while you sit there denying it.

The first step towards bettering yourself is admitting to the problem that you have. Your resistance and denial of the obvious is not going to get you anywhere.

Denial? Have you yet to provide a methodology for conclusing ZIonism is a cancer?

Have you yet to provide proof Europeans and settler colonial extensions have been mind controlled by Zionist acrobats?

You can't even provide an example of where I called you an anti semite simply because you criticized Israel.

Lol. How do I deny something you have never established?

[Rue]

I am trying not to make this personal or about you Rue, but in this case I have to.

Here is the problem with your argument and the reason I (and others) cannot get through to you.

Many times people have gone after Israeli policies (settlements issue being one). However with the contention that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state, there is no way one can argue against Israeli policy without being called an anti-semite. You seem to hold the view that being a Zionist, a Jew and or an Israeli is one in the same. I tried to differentiate between them and STILL got called an anti-semit from you. But then even you agree that there is a difference. So which is it?

You simply won't allow the separation of Zionist from Israeli from Jew. You can't. You've accused many of being anti-semetic claiming their challenges on Israeli policies are a veiled attempt to hide one's antisemitism. You not just accused me of it, you have accused MANY. I will say HJ has a beef with Israel and well, you need to go after HJ instead of going after everyone that wants to debate this topic with some form of civility. However you have a problem with civility as well.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24074-surprise-israel-refuses-cooperation-with-un-gaza-war-probe/page-5?hl=semite

This reminds me of the crap I used to go through with DogonPorch. Constant misrepresentation of one's words. Each time you try and make it personal and attack someone. Each time you call out posters in your comments and berate them. Each time you go off on rants that are disjointed and downright rude. I'd ask you to stop, but that would be pointless.

So let's settle this matter here. Am I an anti-semite, or not? A simple yes or no would be appreciated. Once we clear this up then we might be able to have grown up dialogue on this matter, otherwise, you are simply trolling.

I'll be in the cooler.

Asking me if you are an anti semite is not the issue and never was. You want to change it to that but its not the issue.

The issue is can words that claim or preport to criticize Israeli state policy turn anti semitic by then going further and using terms that refer to Jews as a people, or the Jewish religion in terms that are hatefui.

To be able to determine if your words on this forum, or any other person's words are anti semitic I need to see the words and the context they are used in and the sequence of timing they are used. Then I would give my subjective opinion as a Jew whether I find them insulting or not. I speak for myself.

Trying to engage me personally to describe you personally is not working. The baiting and attempt to get personal on this thread with me to focus it away from the actual accusation HJ made with zero proof to back it up is the issue.

Now you presented another thread and I take it are trying to suggest I called you an anti semite. As I stated if I used that term it was in reference to words, not you, it was in reference to words being expressed, not you. So since you want to try remove that thread, take it out of its context to try suggest

I simply call people anti semite only because they criticize Israel, I will be gald to produce the specific words from that thread that made it clear, when I used the term anti semite, it was because the words being said had nothing to do with Israeli state policy and insulted Jewish holocaust survivors.

In fact the thread backs up completely what I have said on this thread and establishes I did not call anyone an anti-semite simply because they criticized Israel.

Also interestingly they show that when I asked Jacee if she beleived Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, she said NOBODY has to recognize Israel as a Jewish state but continues to deny that she does not recognize Israel as a Jewish state even when repeatedly asked to state whether she herself believes Israel has a right to be Jewish. She will only answer it does not matter what she thinks. Lol. More to the point when she used my dispute with her over why she won't state her personal opinion about Israel having a right to be Jewish she used it in response to me asking her when I called her an anti-semite. Clearly I did not and she showed that.

Now Ghost you want to keep playing then read the full context of how you were challenged by me word for word and why I never once called you an anti-semite without specific reference to certain words.

Of course you are going to say my answer is too long but that is the game is it not Ghsot, to remove what I said out of context and hope no one remembers the sequence and context so you can change the context to change the meaning of what I said? Lol.

My comment to you can not be understood without first reading up to it and its actual context.

In that thread you quoterd whose issue was about “Israel refusing to cooperate with the UN Gaza Probe”, Eye stated:

“Well, speaking for myself I have two suggestions. 1) going back to Europe and carving off a piece of Germany in reparation for the Holocaust. 2) unless I'm mistaken wasn't the Ungava Peninsula once ttouted as being a possible Jewish homeland?”

I believed the above response had nothing to do with the initial thread and an Israeli state policy, i.e., its refusal to cooperate with the UN Gaza Probe, but an issue dealing with compensating Jewish survivors of the holocaust and intermixing that with a reference to the Ungava Penisula once being touted as a possible Jewish homeland, which said the context for questioning holocaust survivors who were Jews fleeing to Israel and wanting a homeland in Israel and not Ungava Peninsula.

That was in fact a deliberate shift away from the thread topic it had nothing to do with, Israeli state policy on the UN Gaza proble to a reference that questions the right of Jews to seek refuge in a Jewish state because of the holocaust and to raise compensation of Jewish victims of the holocaust as if it was attached to any discussion as to Israeli policies with the UN’s probe.

Eyeball then placed a post about the USS Liberty incident which had nothing to do with the topic either and I would contend was yet another example of bringing up a completely different issue designed to raise resentment at Israel for killing American navy seamen.

Since it was Topaz who first raised the Liverty issue and only Eye who then joined in on it so I addressed Topaz stating:

“1. Why is this thread being hijacked for a ludicrous attempt to piss on Israel with the USS Liberty incident? How is that even remotely related to this thread other than a pathetic attempt try continue the pissing with a new theme? More to the point Topaz your reference was repudiated already on a previous thread and the alleged new information you claim you read is not new. It is in fact a new documentary reproduced the same old allegations that had already been repudiated. This device of re-running the USS Liberty thread each time there is a lull in the ability to piss on Israel is tiresome. You want to start a thread Topaz go ahead and the usual piss on Israel entourage will join along with you pretending the info is new but it has nothing to do with this thread.”

Nowhere in the above comment to Topaz did I accuse him of being an anti semite.

Bubber Miley then made these comments which were a personal attack on me and had nothing to do with the thread:

“Still can't formulate a coherent argument that cites where you get your information? Instead, all you can do is say whoever disagrees with you wants to get rid of Israel? Maybe you can come up with some totally fake credentials again to make people believe you know what you're talking about.”

I responded to him and stated:

“Get this clear as well, when I criticize a poster for their position of being in favour of eradicating Israel I am clear as to who I claim believes that and specifically challenge the words they used to that effect. So this crap that anyone who disagrees with me on Israel I accuse of wanting to get rid of it is again par for the course. Its as pathetic as the claim that I blame and hate all Muslims.”

Still no reference to anyone being an anti-semite.

I then responded directly to Eye on his not addressing the thread topic but changing it to suggest a chunk of Germany be given to holocaust survivors made in the context to question Israel having to have been created for holocaust survivors by stating the following:

“Well speaking for myself I find your comments anti-semitic, ignorant, and par for the course and the kind of Jew baiting I would expect on these threads. Your comments have nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with insulting Jews and holocaust survivors using the pretext of Israel to do so.

Your words are ignorant and hateful. The majority of holocaust victims who died were not German. The majority who survived were ignored by the UN and had no choice but to go to France, the US or Israel. They had no choice.

So for you to state what you did is just another snide insult. You know full well your suggestion is meant to insult and belittle holocaust survivors.

Right finish the insult. Why not suggest the Jews build condos at Dachau while you are at it.

The only thing you have done Eye is prove what I have contended all along that people like you use this forum and the pretext of discussing Israel as an excuse to vent your trye agenda which is disrespect and hatred for Jews.

You know where to find me.”

I stand by those words. Read them carefully. I made it clear I was challenging his words and the agenda I felt they represent. At no time did I directly call Eye an anti semite. I challenged his words. I found Eye’s choice of words ones that hijacked the thread and make comments about Ungava Peninsula and holocaust suvivors going back to Germany for me deliberate Jew baiting.

I made my opinion clear, and I explained the basis for it. At no time did I call Eye's words anti semitic because he criticized Israel state policy. In fact he used the thread as his pretense for expressing words unrelated to the thread that questioned holocaust survivors' rights to go live in Israel.

,Nothing in his raising the holocaust, suggesting chunks of Germany as compensation instead of those Jews moving to Israel., addressed the issue of the Gaza probe.

Big Guy and Blubber then chose to make personal questions to me unrelated to the thread and the moderator said knock off the personal attacks.

Dre disagreed with Eye’s comment and stated;

“Most of the jews in Israel were not even alive back then. They are living where they were born and should not have to go anywhere at all..”

This clearly evidenced the issue not just in my mind was now no longer about Israel’s state policy as to the Gaza probe but the right of Jewish holocaust survivors to live in Israel as Jewish citizens.

Moonlight Graham then defended Eye’s words stating to me :

“Please don't insinuate posters are racists unless you have better evidence.”

In so doing I believe Moonlight Graham meant I was insuating Eye was anti-semitic when he said racist.

I responded to M-Graham and said:

“ It is an insult to me, to the children of holocaust survivors, and to holocaust survivors. Its not a suggestion, its a deliberate insult. I am not insinuating I am stating. It insults Jews who h ad to flee Europe to Israel.

For you to come on this forum and try rationalize it as a reasonable suggestion speaks for itself as well.

Right. Let's just airlift Israelis today and dump them in Germany and slice it off of Germany. Brilliant.

Go on Moonlight join in. Justify it. Rationalize it. Knock yourself out. I state it again, It is a direct insult to my relatives who died in Europe, to holocaust survivors, to Germans, to anyone who understands why…

As for reparations your attempt to spin it to mean that and not what he said is ridiculous. German has paid reparations and Israel has accepted them and the two countries are allies.

In fact Germany is one of Israel's most loyal allies.”

My comments are very clear and they do not illustrate I was criticizing Eye simply because he was criticizing Israel state policies.

Then HJ clearly evidenced how the thread was not being used to discuss the Gaza probe but question the right f holocaust surviving Jews to choose where they should live:

“You seem quite sensitive about this. Many of these Jews are originally from Germany, Poland and Russia. Why shouldn't they go back there, instead of taking land from people who have been living in that place for centuries.”

HJ's words challenged Jewish holocaust survivors and their rights. It had nothing to do with Israeli state policies or the Gaza probe. and provided a classic example of what I have argued on this thread and others. that criticism of an Israeli state policy can quickly turn into criticizing Jews and holocaust surviving Jews for choosing to live in Israel and therefore go from an alleged thread on Israel state policies to engaging in hurtful anti semitic references.

This is why I then responded to HJ and said:

“This thread was not about deporting Jews to Europe. The fact you and your entourage turned it into such a thread speaks for itself and the board's refusal to prevent this hihacking of the thread.

I seem quite sensitive do I. What was that Hudson. Is that your idea of trying to bait?

Lol. Move on Hudson and take Moonlight and your deport the Jews entourage with you,. “

Again at no time do any of my challenges have to do with anyone criticizing an Israeli state policy let alone criticizing Israel for not cooperating with the Gaza probe because not one of the people I responded to was responding to the thread topic but was engaging me in comment challenging the right of JEWS not Israelis, the right of JEWS and JEWISH HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS not wanting to remain in Europe after WW2 in the very countries where our people were slaughtered en masse and all our property was taken away.

The comments at this point insulted not just Jewish survivors of the holocaust but any survivor fo the holocaust who would not want to live in the country or countries attached to their slaughter.

This is also why I then challenged Moonlight Graham again and stated:

“Go on Moonlight Graham. Explain how carving off a piece of Germany does not mean deporting the jews of Israel there. Go on. Finish what you started,

Go on explain how its reasonable and how making a snide comment about the Ungava Peninsula was not meant as an insult. Go on explain how its reasonable. Go on. Explain and finish what you started instead of lecturing me and holocaust survivors and daring to tell us we should return to Germany. Go on. Explain how this is not patronizing, demeaning, and baiting of Jews who had to flee Europe. Go on. Do you want to finish or do you want to join the entourage and chant get out Jews.

See I am here Moonlight because you do not intimidate me, these anti Jewish diatribes do not imtimidate me and when you or anyone else wants to attack Jews and our memories under the pretext of criticizing israeli state policies I will speak out and call those words what they are hateful.”

The words in bold above make clear what I was challenging when I stated…”when you or anyone else wants to attack Jews and our memories under the pretext of criticizing israeli state policies I will speak out and call those words what they are hateful.”

I specifically clarified I was not criticizing criticizing Israel state policies, but using the pretext of criticizing Israeli state policies (i.e., the thread topic) as an opportunity to insult the memory of holocaust survivors and I stand by that challenge and I call those references to the holocaust and deporting Jews to Germany as insulting and hateful to Jews and therefore anti semitic.

There was specific context for why I said it.

Then Moonlight responded with:

“Myself nor Eyeball aren't being "anti-Jewish", and criticizing Israel isn't being anti-Jewish either. I can't debate with irrational people.”

I never stated criticizing Israel is necessarily anti Jewish. I said raising the memory of Jewish holocaust survivors in an insulting way using the pretext of a thread on criticizing Israel policy towards the UN Gaza probe was.

Then I got this response from Dre:

“ROLMAO... Hes come completely unhinged hahahahaha.”

This is why I then responded to Moonlight Graham and stated:

“Its easy to come on this forum for some of you and chime in with the anti Jewish comments passing as anti Israeli comments. Too easy. Its not easy however coming on this board speaking in balanced terms where neither side of the conflict is presented as a demon and solutions are proposed that are fair to both sides.

Irrational? irrational is suggesting one slice up any country. Irrational? Irrational is referring to Zionism as a cancer.

You want to defend the words of such people go ahead. I am here to keep challenging them. Its my right.”

Again I was being very clear which words and references I was challenging as hateful and why and what I received in response was name calling no acknowledgement that such words could be hurtful.

It was then and only then Ghost you stated to me:

“I thought it was anti-Israeli comments passing off as anti-Jewish comments? “

This is why I then responded to you and stated:

“ How is it not both Ghost? Are you just chiming in or do you want to actually debate something. You saw the giggles. Is that what you want to join in on?tee hee giggle giggle. Let's talk about sending Jews to Germany and pass it off as reasonable discussion on this thread?

Call it what you want Ghost. Engaging me in semantics doesn't change it.”

The above totally supports the argument I have made to you on this thread Ghost and the others.

It shows how comments that start off claiming to criticize an Israeli state policy can change in to comments that insult Jews and yes its possible comments criticizing Israel for existing insult and are hurtful to Jews for being Jews and when that happens they become anti semitic and that is why I would then call those words anti semitic.

So this attempt for you Ghost or Jacee ro Eye or HJ to say I attack you as being anti semitic simply because you are anti Israeli has been proven false by the very words you have asked me to look at/

My responses show to determine if words are anti semitic it depends on who they reference, what they reference, why, the context in which they are set.

Its about the context of the words.

Asking me if you are an anti semite is ridiculous.

Asking me whether I consider your words expressed anti semitic, maybe yes, maybe no.

Ghost with due respect read HJ's words to me. He keeps claiming things about me with zero reference. You at least made an effort.

So did Jacee. So I explain what I said specifically focusing on those words.

I have no reason to simply call you anti semite unless I think I was provoked.

Please remember I come from people who died in the holocaust, pogroms, Israel from terror attacks and war, and who took in Muslim refugees, Ukrainian refugees and were assisted by Christians from certain death.

I do not use the word lightly.

I also appreciate many anti semites say things they don't take the time to think through and express their comments unintentionally based on ignorance and ignorance I say not in a condescending tone.

I challenge terms hurtful to Jews the same way I would challenge generalized terms hurtful to people simply because they are Muslim.

I take the time to precisely explain my words but then my dettractors say they don't read more than a few words so they can not have it both ways. They can't come on this board and refuse to back up their positions but then complain when I do with great detail.

I hope my explanation to you is clear.

If you were to tell me, Rue, my comment is about an Israeli state policy, not the right of Jews to exist as Jews in a state, and explained why I would be the first to acknowledge it.

Criticizing say IDF actions in itself is fair game. However if in the criticism the words depict ALL IDF soldiers as engaging in genocide, or all Israelis as supporting genocide and then using references to then call them Jews acting as Nazis or like Nazis, yes I will challenge them as hateful.

You as a person, I have no clue who you like or do not like and I really don't care. I challenge the words stated. I challenge people to look at the words they stated and ask them, to stop making assumptions as to what is good for Jews, where Jews should have chosen to live after WW2.

I ask them to discuss the issues in a way where they can see both sides of the argument not just one.

How about for example in that Gaza probe thread you and I had debated it instead?

I would have said, I do not trust the UN to be impartial. I would have said bad things happened on both sides necessarily because in a civil war, civilians on both sides necessarily suffer. I would not have simply taken one side of the issue. I also would have argued for me, I would have preferred a genuinely neutral body to try learn from the last conflict how to better protect citizens on both sides from future conflict.

The reality is that's what should have been debated and was not by us. We both went off on that tangent and for God's sake neither of us is a war monger and wants people killed who are innocent.

Get out of the cooler. I certainly did not put you there any more than your accusations or claims about me put me in one.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Rue

[eyeball]

I call references to deporting Jews to Germany as insulting and hateful to Jews and therefore anti semitic.

Why do you keep referring to doing so then?

[Rue]

Eye at least make an effort to write your accusation clearly. I suppose you were trying to make a suggestion I initiated the comment on carving out a portion of Jews for Germany or initiated HJ's response that there was nothing wrong with sending Jews back to Poland.

Its clear who initiated the responses and I was challenging them.

[GostHacked]

Eye at least make an effort to write your accusation clearly. I suppose you were trying to make a suggestion I initiated the comment on carving out a portion of Jews for Germany or initiated HJ's response that there was nothing wrong with sending Jews back to Poland.

Its clear who initiated the responses and I was challenging them.

Reading comprehension. Again that statement was referring to Germany just after the holocaust, and before Israel was created. At that time it would have made sense to carve a piece out of Germany for the Jews. That is not the case now. Hope that clears it up.

Also it was not HJ that first stated that.

Edited January 23, 2015 by GostHacked

[Rue]

Reading comprehension. Again that statement was referring to Germany just after the holocaust, and before Israel was created. At that time it would have made sense to carve a piece out of Germany for the Jews. That is not the case now. Hope that clears it up.

Also it was not HJ that first stated that.

Yes I made that clear. As for the clarification of your words, carving a piece out of Germany for a Jewish country before or after Israel was created is equally as illogical and nonsensical so readining comphrension was never the issue, your illogical comment was.

Right. Poles, French, Dutch, Norweigans, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Jews from all over Europe after the holocaust should have been sent to Germany for a Jewish state in Germany let alone the German survivors of the holocaust.

Yah I get it, you see nothing wrong with that suggestion.

You think it was reasonable.

In your world you have no clue why Jews would return to their place of origin. Not you. T

They just chose Israel because they wanted to go piss of Arabs and they had nothing better to do.

Right. Got it the first time. No matter how many times you repeat it, its equally as illogical and in my opinion ignorant and hateful.

In your world telling people to stay in the countries that have visible reminders of their slaughter makes sense. Got it.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Yes I made that clear. As for the clarification of your words, carving a piece out of Germany for a Jewish country before or after Israel was created is equally as illogical and nonsensical so readining comphrension was never the issue, your illogical comment was.

The comment was not illogical. It would have made sense at the time. Germans did a number on Jews, so to correct the issue Israel needs to be created in the Middle East to satisfy an ancient 'right of return'. Using the holocaust as a catalyst, knowing it has little to do with the long standing notion of the right of return via the Zionist movement in Europe. Specifically in Britain.

Would Jews have accepted a slab of Germany cut out for them? Or is it the longer standing Zionist movement of the 'right of return' to the lands that once was ancient Israel?

Right. Poles, French, Dutch, Norweigans, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Jews from all over Europe after the holocaust should have been sent to Germany for a Jewish state in Germany let alone the German survivors of the holocaust.

You might be right, better to get them ALL out of Europe.

Yah I get it, you see nothing wrong with that suggestion.

You are correct. The suggestion is reasonable and I see nothing wrong with it.

In your world you have no clue why Jews would return to their place of origin. Not you.

What is valid argument behind this right of return? What gives them the right to return and not others?

They just chose Israel because they wanted to go piss of Arabs and they had nothing better to do.

A bait line. Nice.

Right. Got it the first time. No matter how many times you repeat it, its equally as illogical and in my opinion ignorant and hateful.

Hateful? How so?

In your world telling people to stay in the countries that have visible reminders of their slaughter makes sense. Got it.

Is this why Jewish people went BACK to Israel? Ancient Israelis were slaughtered back then. Why would they want to go back?

[eyeball]

The comment was not illogical. It would have made sense at the time.

It made sense after WW 2. Just sayin'.

Edited January 31, 2015 by eyeball

[GostHacked]

It made sense after WW1. Just sayin'.

I agree, at that time it would have made perfect sense.

[eyeball]

Yes, at the time, a key distinction that's being deliberately and even maliciously ignored.

[guyser]

Right. Got it the first time.

As evidenced by at least this post, (there are others), No...no you obviously didnt get it then nor do you get it now.

Carry on as usual.

[marcus]

You are correct. The suggestion is reasonable and I see nothing wrong with it.

Another example of trying to shame a person in not discussing something that is outside of the narrative.

[GostHacked]

Another example of trying to shame a person in not discussing something that is outside of the narrative.

Explain? I am confused by this statement.

[Rue]

Right Guyser. Its reasonable for you to move next door to a mass murderer who wiped out your entire family. That is reasonable. Got it the first time, the second time, third time, etc.

[guyser]

Right Guyser. Its reasonable for you to move next door to a mass murderer who wiped out your entire family. That is reasonable. Got it the first time, the second time, third time, etc.

Yikes....no you didnt.

Germany had the largest Jewish population pre-war in central Europe.

Maybe they would have liked to live there.