Wake Up Call For Canadian Democracy

[maplesyrup]

B.C. group advocates new way to elect officials

Finally Canadian citizens are being given an opportunity to speak out on the future of Canadian democracy, rather than the political parties, and special interest groups.

Don't you all find it more than a little surprising that Jane and Joe Citizens' ideas for protecting or having a TRUE DEMOCRACY clash so strongly with the powerful bullies in our Canadian society, have very little in common with the politicians, political parties and the powers elites that have been running our country since Confederation?

I say to Canadians everywhere let's take our country back from these charletans that have stolen our democratic rights, these people who have usurpted our democracy.

As they say in baseball, time to throw the bums out!!!

[brianw]

I say to Canadians everywhere let's take our country back from these charletans that have stolen our democratic rights, these people who have usurpted our democracy.

Now, if only the rest of us would. Unfourtunately I don't think Ontario (where I live) would be so open to this suggestion since Ontario has such an overwhelming decision at the federal level.

[caesar]

They really don't go into detail how this will work. I don't think it will be voted for in the referendum. Change for the sake of change just costs money and probably won't really make a big difference other than take vote power away from rural areas. I am not clear on this but if we are to have the same number of candidates chosen but some ridings will have 5 or 6 choices????

[maplesyrup]

caesar....that's a pretty pessimistic outlook don't you think!

Check out the Irish system for a clearer understanding of what the Canadian people are proposing, as opposed to to our rich and powerful elites' idea of maintaining the stautus quo, so the rich and powerful remain rich and powerful.

B.C. voters to choose electoral system next May

I have confidence in Jane and Joe Canadian citizens.

This is not mob rule when someone has been bludgeoned to death and the howling idiots want the perpetrator's head cut off even before there is a trail.

This BC Citizen's Assembly has been deliberating for some time now.

[Slavik44]

I alway wondered what they would come up with, and always figured it would be a bunch of un-realistic garbage that would cause more problems then good and simply not function. However, at first glance I would be inclined to vote yes, but I would like to see more documentation about the proposed changes and how they plan to set them into action.

[August1991]

I alway wondered what they would come up with, and always figured it would be a bunch of un-realistic garbage that would cause more problems then good and simply not function.

IOW, make it so complicated that voter turn out will fall even further. Maybe that's the point: exclude the people who can't be bothered to figure out who to vote for.

I would like to be able to prove mathematically that it makes no difference what voting system is chosen. The basic logic is that voters will adjust their voting behaviour according to the rules in place.

These proposals always assume that voters will not vote strategically or that voters won't take into account the new rules. They also assume that politicians won't change their behaviour either.

[caesar]

have confidence in Jane and Joe Canadian citizens.

This is not mob rule when someone has been bludgeoned to death and the howling idiots want the perpetrator's head cut off even before there is a trail.

This BC Citizen's Assembly has been deliberating for some time

What are you talking about? The BC Citizen's Assembly are just a bunch of people with no special training; they are not experts in any way.

Ireland is not a good example. Look at all the mob rule that has been going on there for years.

[caesar]

Check out the Irish system for a clearer understanding of what the Canadian people are proposing,

Not the Canadian people; just a handful of untrained non experts British Columbians.

[maplesyrup]

I'll take the Canadian citizens over the so-called political experts, with their vested interests any day.

Canadians do NOT want majority government.

It is amazin' how conservative some people all, so resistant to change, particularly here at Mapleleafweb.

[August1991]

Canadians do NOT want majority government.

It is amazin' how conservative some people all, so resistant to change, particularly here at Mapleleafweb.

How do you know what Canadians want, MS?

I suspect rather that since the NDP can't get elected federally, you want them to get into power through the backdoor.

[Michael Hardner]

The problem of voter disenfranchisement is epidemic. I don't think that we can zero in on the Greens' (or other small parties') supporters voices not being heard as the cause, yet PR only addresses this part of the problem.

Canadians have shown that they want social programs, but also good sound management practices. These steps seem to complicate the political picture, which means there will be more effort spent by all parties on politics.

I really doubt that THAT is what the people want to have happen.

[maplesyrup]

The problem of voter disenfranchisement is epidemic.  I don't think that we can zero in on the Greens' (or other small parties') supporters voices not being heard as the cause, yet PR only addresses this part of the problem.

Canadians have shown that they want social programs, but also good sound management practices.  These steps seem to complicate the political picture, which means there will be more effort spent by all parties on politics.

I really doubt that THAT is what the people want to have happen.

Michael.....I agree. The sooner we can find ways to reduce the impact of political parties the healthier a society we will have.

I think electing a minority government has been a good first step.

Now it's time to look at the voting process. One thing for sure, we need to have punitive measures such as fines for people who do not vote.

[Michael Hardner]

The sooner we can find ways to reduce the impact of political parties the healthier a society we will have.

I think electing a minority government has been a good first step.

Within a minority government, TWO political parties have to be consulted before drafting laws. This means twice as much political interference in public policy.

This increases the impact of political parties, not decreases it.

we need to have punitive measures such as fines for people who do not vote.

This strikes me as shooting the messenger. If people feel disenfranchised (or could the problem be that democracy is too successful ? ) I don't think that the government should use a big stick approach.

People need to be more civic minded, need to understand the relationship between public policy in their lives, need to care enough about the differences between the parties to get involved, and so on and so on...

It hardly seems consistent to spoonfeed people, coddle them, and cater to their every whim as consumers on one hand, then expect them to go to a polling station and LINE UP on voting day on the other...

[Slavik44]

I'll take the Canadian citizens over the so-called political experts, with their vested interests any day.

Canadians do NOT want majority government.

It is amazin' how conservative some people all, so resistant to change, particularly here at Mapleleafweb.

No MS what is amazing is how annoying your posts have become on Mapleleafweb. It is constant anti-conservatie dribble. It is as If you proccess things by wether they fit into two categories, Stupid Stephen or Genius Jack. Sometiems i wish I knew how to contact you because i woudl love to send you a post card with a picture of the Earth saying "wish you were here." You rant about the conservative bable on this site but have you ever considered that you may be one of the biggest bablers on this site. For instance when the shelia copps/Martin thing broke. I agree it was big news, but your post title Was why Stephen Harper wont be PM. When Green party looked to steal votes from the NDP you said they were nothing, when the Green party looked like it may capture a conservative riding, you used quotes from Ipsos reid to back yourself up when you claimed the greens would win the riding, when the election was over you brought back one of my threads and mocked the idea of the greens getting a seat. In this thread here, you made it sound as though Canadians had been under the rule of tyranny for centuries, and this burden has jsut been lifted. Joe and Jane Canadian are free to vote and have their voice heard. infact there free to do Berr commercials for Molson as well but molson is a sexist male chauvanistic company that would only hire Joe, correct?

[maplesyrup]

Michael.......the problems we have in our Canadian society often relate to the fact that over 50% of the population have no representation in our government. No wonder so many people give up on the electoral process. What is happening is that the elections and governments have become the domain of the elites.

We have to do a lot of things in life we don't particularly want to do, but I can guarantee you that if we were fined for not voting a lot more people would take part in, and get involved in, the electoral process. We need some new ideas here that will give hope to Canadians, not the same old, same old boring brain-dead ideas that are perpetuated by the elites, who main mission in life to make sure they remain the elite.

[maplesyrup]

when the Green party looked like it may capture a conservative riding, you used quotes from Ipsos reid to back yourself up when you claimed the greens would win the riding, when the election was over you brought back one of my threads and mocked the idea of the greens getting a seat.

Slavik44......please share with us what seats any Canadian Green party has won. I'm curious.

[Slavik44]

when the Green party looked like it may capture a conservative riding, you used quotes from Ipsos reid to back yourself up when you claimed the greens would win the riding, when the election was over you brought back one of my threads and mocked the idea of the greens getting a seat.

Slavik44......please share with us what seats any Canadian Green party has won. I'm curious.

why do you roll your eyes? Why do you fail to respond accurately to my stements through distorting your response to my post, to create an illusory idea of what I was refering to.

I will set it out nice and clear for you:

That is a quote from you

For example. if Ipsos-Reid started including the Christian Heritage party as an option in their questionnaire about which party you are voting for, I can pretty well guarantee you that the Christian Heritage party would start doing better in the polls as well, similiar to the Green party, now that Ipsos-Reid is including them as an option. Just ask yourself which of the major parties benefits most from having Green party on the list of party choices, and you may well get your answer as to what is going on.

With our present first-past-the-post system the Greens will not elect anyone. 

These results illustrate the substantial growth of the NDP and Green Party in British Columbia since the 2000 federal election. The NDP is up 16-points from 2000 (11% to 27%) and the Green Party is up 8-points (2% to 10%). Their gains have come at the expense of the Conservative Party, who though leading at 33% today, are down 23-points from the combined 56% support captured by the Alliance (49%) and Progressive Conservatives (7%) in the last election. Meanwhile, the Liberal Party is virtually unchanged from the November 2000 (28% in 2000, 27% today).

this is a quote you gave me intended to show my the ills of my way after I quoted you in a thread, you were infact argueing with yourself and not even knowing it.

This is another quote from you

That was quite a forecast probably based on the nonsense you read in the mainstream press. Maybe you should be more careful when you get your information.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael.......the problems we have in our Canadian society often relate to the fact that over 50% of the population have no representation in our government. No wonder so many people give up on the electoral process. What is happening is that the elections and governments have become the domain of the elites.

50 ? How did you arrive at that figure ?

We have to do a lot of things in life we don't particularly want to do, but I can guarantee you that if we were fined for not voting a lot more people would take part in, and get involved in, the electoral process. We need some new ideas here that will give hope to Canadians, not the same old, same old boring brain-dead ideas that are perpetuated by the elites, who main mission in life to make sure they remain the elite.

It all sounds good, MS, but in some sense you're describing all the parties there.

[JWayne625]

Democracy, What democracy? We have a government ripe with corruption, and now they want in invoke Parliamentary Privilege so they don't have to answer any questions. The types of questions we as ordinary Canadian's can be forced to testify to, or face contempt charges, and possibly wind up behind bars, as they should.

It was Martin himself that assured the people of Canada that we would know who was pulling the political strings behind the sponsorship scandal before he called an election, then he called one anyway after going through the motions of appointing Justice Gomery to head up an Inquiry. Now we find out that this corruption goes right to the top, no wonder he didn't want to wait until all of the dirt came out before calling and election. They now want to invoke Parliamentary Privilege, so that they will not have to answer any questions on the subject..

Justince Gomery said;

He can't understand why the House of Commons lawyers are arguing to protect privilege, when all four parties that make up the House of Commons have gone on the record as wanting to find out who was involved in channelling up to $100 million to Liberal-friendly ad firms in Quebec.

"For the life of me I can't understand why they have invoked their privilege,"

Gomery said Monday.

If Justice Gomery doesn't know, I do. politicians are just like a thief who has gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and now doesn't want to admit that not only he but other high ranking Liberal Politician's were involved from the start up to their necks, but they also don't want to do the time for this criminal act either. As the old saying goes, "If they can't do the time, don't do the crime.", it's quite simple.

If Martin and his bunch thinks that this is going to go away, they are sadly mistaken, and just maybe people will second guess themselves before thy put an X beside a Liberal Candidate's name, when this minority government falls.

[caesar]

Half the people who vote know don't have a clue about the party or person they are voting for. Generally here in BC and federally; they vote for whomever can beat the present government. Now you want to fine people for not voting???? Do you need a job counting all the sppoilt ballots??? I would rather that people who do not know what they are voting for should not be allowed to vote. Perhaps we should make people write a test to see if they have a clue about the candidates and what they stand for.

[maplesyrup]

50 ? How did you arrive at that figure ?

Michael.......how many of our last, let's say dozen majority federal governments, have 50% or more of the popular vote. Did any of them?

The popular vote is the only real indicator of a true democracy. All this other stuff seats, gerrymandering, etc. just means the powerful rig the voting system to keep control.

Why should any one person's vote be worth more than someone else's? That is not democracy. That's a scam in the name of democracy!

[caesar]

When there are as many parties as we have in Canada; the popular vote being a majority does not often happen.

proportional representation where there are no adjustments will give the power to cities/ big business and farmers and ranchers will lose much input.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael.......how many of our last, let's say dozen majority federal governments, have 50% or more of the popular vote. Did any of them?

The popular vote is the only real indicator of a true democracy. All this other stuff seats, gerrymandering, etc. just means the powerful rig the voting system to keep control.

Why should any one person's vote be worth more than someone else's? That is not democracy. That's a scam in the name of democracy! 

If so, then your plan to make the popular vote 100% by force seems to paper over the problem.

And your plan to give fringe parties more power isn't going to please the 50% that don't vote, either. Do you think that the 50% are all Green Party supporters ? They probably have the same voting habits as those who show up at the polls.

[maplesyrup]

Bulletin:

Now hear this:

Front page of today's Vancouver Sun:

EXPERT SAYS Citizen's Assembly voting proposal is, are you ready for it caesar:

"VOTER FRIENDLY"

[Slavik44]

Bulletin:

Now hear this:

Front page of today's Vancouver Sun:

EXPERT SAYS Citizen's Assembly voting proposal is, are you ready for it caesar:

"VOTER FRIENDLY"

Bulletin:

Now hear this:

Front page of today's Discussion:

Slavik SAYS Maplesyrup's response to my post is, are you ready for it MS:

"Missing"