Uber has no hope in this town

overthere · July 22, 2015

If I was the legal counsel for any city in Canada, I'd be worried very much about the liability of the municiplaity in permitting unlicensed public carriers to operate with impunity.

UberX cars effectively have no insurance. Sooner or later there will be a serious accident, and if I was the plaintiff I'd certainly have the driver, Uber and the city named as defendants.

Uber claims they have common insurance, but refuse to prove it. It looks like it will take death to force them. They are unlikely to have to pay anything since they have structured their operations with offshore corporate structures for this very reason, to insulate themselves from liability, but it will be interesting to have the truth in court.

Boges · July 22, 2015

If I was the legal counsel for any city in Canada, I'd be worried very much about the liability of the municiplaity in permitting unlicensed public carriers to operate with impunity.

UberX cars effectively have no insurance. Sooner or later there will be a serious accident, and if I was the plaintiff I'd certainly have the driver, Uber and the city named as defendants.

Uber claims they have common insurance, but refuse to prove it. It looks like it will take death to force them. They are unlikely to have to pay anything since they have structured their operations with offshore corporate structures for this very reason, to insulate themselves from liability, but it will be interesting to have the truth in court.

When we see a court case, we'll see. In Toronto Uber has said they'll pay any fine an UberX driver receives.

But I think the insurance argument is just a front for the fact that the municipality can't use cab licenses like commodities anymore. Reduced taxes. One of the Toronto City Councillors that's in the pocket of the cab industry is now saying that UberX drivers aren't paying HST. (as if that's his concern) Well NO SHIT! They're independent contractors. I guess the CRA will have to audit everyone connected with Uber now.

Canada_First · July 22, 2015

So just tell the cops nothing. If they dont tell them that theyre Uber drivers how will anyone know?

overthere · July 23, 2015

When we see a court case, we'll see. In Toronto Uber has said they'll pay any fine an UberX driver receives.

But I think the insurance argument is just a front for the fact that the municipality can't use cab licenses like commodities anymore. Reduced taxes. One of the Toronto City Councillors that's in the pocket of the cab industry is now saying that UberX drivers aren't paying HST. (as if that's his concern) Well NO SHIT! They're independent contractors. I guess the CRA will have to audit everyone connected with Uber now.

The lack of insurance is 'a front'?

What does that mean?.

I was once in a business that got sued regularly and often. Personal injury lawyers would-with absolute certainty-include municipalities in the list of defendants in a Uber inspired liability suit.

Aside from the liability likely for the negligence of the city in enforcing safety standards(including insurance), I am not so foolish as to knowingly get into a vehicle I know has no insurance.

I used to think like you, that enabling a cash economy was just fine.

But then I left childhood and started paying taxes. With that came the realization that tax free earnings by others did not benefit me. The opposite was true- I had to pay my share, and the tax dodgers share too.

Boges · July 23, 2015

The lack of insurance is 'a front'?

What does that mean?.

I was once in a business that got sued regularly and often. Personal injury lawyers would-with absolute certainty-include municipalities in the list of defendants in a Uber inspired liability suit.

Aside from the liability likely for the negligence of the city in enforcing safety standards(including insurance), I am not so foolish as to knowingly get into a vehicle I know has no insurance.

I used to think like you, that enabling a cash economy was just fine.

But then I left childhood and started paying taxes. With that came the realization that tax free earnings by others did not benefit me. The opposite was true- I had to pay my share, and the tax dodgers share too.

Uber is in like 300 cities. Has a municipal government been sued and lost once?

What I'm saying is the hand wringing about Insurance isn't really what's getting governments in a tither. It's all about the fact they're going to lose control of a huge cash cow.

We all pay taxes. I don't mind if HST is included in the Uber pricing model. But Municipal governments don't stand to make any money from HST anyway. Where the money will be lost is all these licenses that governments use to regulate the number of cabs that can be on the street.

TimG · July 23, 2015

Where the money will be lost is all these licenses that governments use to regulate the number of cabs that can be on the street.

In many cities it is all about protecting friends of the elected officials who make huge profits owning artificially limited commodities.

overthere · July 24, 2015

Uber is in like 300 cities. Has a municipal government been sued and lost once?

I have no idea what has happened in other countries, nor do I understand insurance regulations or the legal systems in other countries.

But I understand how they work here, having been sued(as a representative of a corporation) many times for liability claims.

The lack of insurance is not a trivial issue.

I would have no problem at all about UberX if they had insurance that protected their customers in an accident.

I see you don't care about that. Do you feel that auto insurance should be optional for everybody, or just for Uber?

Boges · July 27, 2015

I have no idea what has happened in other countries, nor do I understand insurance regulations or the legal systems in other countries.

But I understand how they work here, having been sued(as a representative of a corporation) many times for liability claims.

The lack of insurance is not a trivial issue.

I would have no problem at all about UberX if they had insurance that protected their customers in an accident.

I see you don't care about that. Do you feel that auto insurance should be optional for everybody, or just for Uber?

I think that's a risk the driver takes. Drivers aren't being charged for insufficient insurance, they're being charged for not having a proper license. Basically they don't give their cut to the man.

bill_barilko · July 28, 2015

I think that's a risk the driver takes. Drivers aren't being charged for insufficient insurance, they're being charged for not having a proper license. Basically they don't give their cut to the man.

Monumental misunderstanding of the transportation industry (and society in general) noted.

Boges · July 28, 2015

Monumental misunderstanding of the transportation industry (and society in general) noted.

And no attempt to rebut my point either. I eagerly await to hear how you don't believe the taxi licenses that are used as a commodity aren't an issue in regards to Uber.

overthere · July 28, 2015

I think that's a risk the driver takes. Drivers aren't being charged for insufficient insurance, they're being charged for not having a proper license. Basically they don't give their cut to the man.

A risk the driver takes?

Why should anybody be allowed to risk others by not having insurance on their taxi? Nobody else on the road is permitted to drive without insurance, why is Uber different?.

Topaz · August 26, 2015

Why don't they go into small communities were there is no taxi service and less chance of accidents?

bill_barilko · August 28, 2015

Why don't they go into small communities were there is no taxi service and less chance of accidents?

There are few taxis in small communities because there's little business and any Uber contractor (and that's what the drivers are contractors not employees) would still have operating expenses both fixed & fluctuating.

Why spend money when you know you're not going to make any?

Edited August 28, 2015 by bill_barilko

Topaz · August 28, 2015

There are few taxis in small communities because there's little business and any Uber contractor (and that's what the drivers are contractors not employees) would still have operating expenses both fixed & fluctuating.

Why spend money when you know you're not going to make any?

My area did have taxis but the insurance rates were too high and the guy left and went to Alberta to work. Even if u are a parent driving kids school outing, u may have to have special insurance for that I was told, at least in Ontario.

Big Guy · August 28, 2015

We live in a town in Southern Ontario about 150 km from Toronto. The closest bus route is a 45 minute drive away. There is a limosine service and a few cabs that will get you into Toronto but are very expensive. There are always people who fly out of Toronto and an "unofficial" airport service has been developed. One can always locate someone willing to drive you into Toronto and many available if you give enough lead time - given a ride by people driving into Toronto for shopping, entertainment, weekend visits, hospital and/or doctor visits etc.

I am not sure if this is considered "Uber" but has been going on for years.

Boges · August 28, 2015

We live in a town in Southern Ontario about 150 km from Toronto. The closest bus route is a 45 minute drive away. There is a limosine service and a few cabs that will get you into Toronto but are very expensive. There are always people who fly out of Toronto and an "unofficial" airport service has been developed. One can always locate someone willing to drive you into Toronto and many available if you give enough lead time - given a ride by people driving into Toronto for shopping, entertainment, weekend visits, hospital and/or doctor visits etc.

I am not sure if this is considered "Uber" but has been going on for years.

It's ride sharing for sure. Carpooling works kind of like Uber too.

Uber is in direct competition with cabs though.

kraychik · September 1, 2015

Perhaps Uber can facilitate the destruction of the corrupt mafia that is taxi regulation in Ottawa?

It is wicked and immoral that one must pay for permission to sell transportation services with his/her own automobile. It's also why taxi services are so expensive in Ottawa and many other cities.

overthere · September 1, 2015

Perhaps Uber can facilitate the destruction of the corrupt mafia that is taxi regulation in Ottawa?

It is wicked and immoral that one must pay for permission to sell transportation services with his/her own automobile. It's also why taxi services are so expensive in Ottawa and many other cities.

So you subscribe to notion that people who knowingly drive uninsured vehicles are some kind of taxi freedom fighters?.

Boges · September 1, 2015

So you subscribe to notion that people who knowingly drive uninsured vehicles are some kind of taxi freedom fighters?.

Pretty much. They are just sharing their car for someone that wants it. I guess you should have proper insurance if you pick up a hitchhiker.

kraychik · September 1, 2015

So you subscribe to notion that people who knowingly drive uninsured vehicles are some kind of taxi freedom fighters?.

"Proper Insurance".

I'm referring to paying for permission from the city in order to use your own private property in a voluntary transaction with someone else. Taxi licensing isn't insurance - it's pay-to-play corruption.

overthere · September 1, 2015

"Proper Insurance".

I'm referring to paying for permission from the city in order to use your own private property in a voluntary transaction with someone else. Taxi licensing isn't insurance - it's pay-to-play corruption.

You have failed to dodge the issue: insurance.

Licensing is one issue, and I agree that there is little benefit to consumers in the traditional licensing system. Perhaps they should just delete taxi licensing fees, and raise porpterty taxes to cover the lost revenue.

But only a fool would drive a vehicle without 3rd party insurance, and only a fool would get into a vehicle that they know has no insurance, which is the case with UberX drivers and vehicles. Local/provincial governments are civilly negligent if they permit anybody, including UberX, to operate without insurance for common carriers like UberX - which are clearly taxis.

Stifle your anger about taxi service for a moment, and consider the larger picture.

overthere · September 1, 2015

Pretty much. They are just sharing their car for someone that wants it. I guess you should have proper insurance if you pick up a hitchhiker.

Why should anybody have insurance then?

UberX is a common carrier, a taxi for hire taking people point a to point b for pay.

Being dispatched via a smartphone does not change that they are uninsured vehicles.

Really, Uber Corporate does not need the public spreading their rote bullshit about 'sharing'. Save that for the mentally disabled and people attending kindergarten.

Boges · September 1, 2015

Why should anybody have insurance then?

UberX is a common carrier, a taxi for hire taking people point a to point b for pay.

Being dispatched via a smartphone does not change that they are uninsured vehicles.

Really, Uber Corporate does not need the public spreading their rote bullshit about 'sharing'. Save that for the mentally disabled and people attending kindergarten.

But the cab industry needs people spreading this lie that the insurance question is about public safety and not that it takes money out of the coffers of governments and middle men that own licenses.

People gladly take the risk all the time. The truth is, the UberX driver takes on most of the risk should they get sued by a person that gets hurt in their car.

kraychik · September 1, 2015

But the cab industry needs people spreading this lie that the insurance question is about public safety and not that it takes money out of the coffers of governments and middle men that own licenses.

People gladly take the risk all the time. The truth is, the UberX driver takes on most of the risk should they get sued by a person that gets hurt in their car.

Let's not pretend that legalized mafia-esque extortion via licensing fees is the same as third-party insurance. I'm (grudgingly( willing to accept mandatory extra-insurance for taxi drivers (including Uber, of course). What I oppose is a licensing fee, where individuals need to pay the government for permission to use their private property in voluntary transactions with other people.

It's evil and immoral. And expensive.

Cheers.

overthere · September 1, 2015

But the cab industry needs people spreading this lie that the insurance question is about public safety and not that it takes money out of the coffers of governments and middle men that own licenses.

People gladly take the risk all the time. The truth is, the UberX driver takes on most of the risk should they get sued by a person that gets hurt in their car.

Ever get into an accident with somebody that does not have insurance? No, I guess not or you would not persist in this. Yeah, people who ride Uber can pretend they assume the risk, but no f**king way do they or you get to foist that risk on me or my family.

I want my government to insist that every private vehcicle on the road have insurance, and to prosecute those that do not.

I don't give a rats ass about middle men and their license. Give everybody a license for free if you want. Include them on milk cartons. But every public carrier./taxi must have adequate insurnace and be able to prove that.