Should Canada Deploy the DART to Africa?

[Argus]

Well that's send the local fire departments over then

I guess, because from your description Canadian army doctors aren't actually qualified to even be nurses, or even paramedics (most firefighters are trained as paramedics)

[Derek 2.0]

I haven't asked for DART. I haven't suggested DART. What I was going is telling you hoe wrong you are in regards to training and equipment of medical and emergency response professionals.

Really?

Anyway, Canada should deploy DART and possibly 1 Canadian Field Hospital or a field ambulance. It's something we're rather good at but we don't do it enough.

[Derek 2.0]

I guess, because from your description Canadian army doctors aren't actually qualified to even be nurses, or even paramedics (most firefighters are trained as paramedics)

So the local fire department should be able to handle Ebola in West Africa.......good to know

[Smallc]

At the time, I was thinking about dart as a way to support medical personnel in terms of security, logistics, and providing fresh water, not in terms of a medical response.

[Derek 2.0]

That would do no good at the treatment end, but it would certainly help to lessen the spread of the disease among first responders.

And in the above statement from the Federal Government, they're not sending DART because:

DART is deployed for “large-scale, rapid-onset natural disasters” at the request of affected countries and provides “primary (not quarantine/isolation) medical care”

[Smallc]

And they could still do that, along side personnel who can provide that.

[Smallc]

So the local fire department should be able to handle Ebola in West Africa.......good to know

They can certainly handle the infection control procedures. You should be turning those laughs around on yourself.

[Derek 2.0]

And they could still do that, along side personnel who can provide that.

Like the local FD right?

[Derek 2.0]

They can certainly handle the infection control procedures. You should be turning those laughs around on yourself.

So, when you get sick, you go down to the local FD instead of your GP/Hospital?

[Army Guy]

People who don't have all that much knowledge of Medical PPE and procedures followed at every facility really seem to think they know a lot about it. A combined canadian team made up of personnel from DND and the Winnipeg Level 4 Lab (already operating in the region) would provide much needed medical resources, and with the right procedures and equipment (which we have) would keep our personnel safe as well.

Hey i will admit, i know very little about medical PPE and how a field hospital is run.....what i do know is they do not operate in a CBRN enviroment, nor so they have the containment required to contain ebola.....they have problems containing gastro let alone ebola....there PPE is the same as every soldiers PPE , paper masks , rubber medical gloves.....and for the surgical side they have aprons and full face masks......not sure how that would keep medical staff safe for ebola.....when as i said the people in say the level 4 facility in winnipeg don't just pull this stuff out of the frezer with a simple pair of rubber gloves and a paper mask.....then there is the question why do they need a level 4 facilty.....

I'm sure you have a source for that deployment....All that being said would they have the equipment needed to deploy servral hundard at a time....

[Derek 2.0]

I'm sure you have a source for that deployment....All that being said would they have the equipment needed to deploy servral hundard at a time....

PHAC does have personal in West Africa.......but again, they're experts in this field.

[Argus]

Hey i will admit, i know very little about medical PPE and how a field hospital is run.....what i do know is they do not operate in a CBRN enviroment,

This is NOT a CBRN environment. Ebola is transmitted between humans in the same way AIDS is.

blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola

objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus

Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/

A primary reason it is spreading so quickly in Africa is the confusion, lack of coordination, and lack of a disciplined approach to disease management on the part of local health agencies and workers.

For example, in a Canadian medical setting be it military or not, there are a lot of disposable gowns, gloves, masks, etc. These are put on and taken off and put into special containers for disposal all day long, routinely, by medical professionals. Hand washing is also routine and strongly reinforced by a disciplined setting. This is generally enough to restrain the spread of ebola. In Africa, naturally, there is both a lack of disposable materials and a lack of the inherent discipline on using them and disposing of them.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Argus

[Army Guy]

So what everyone is saying is that every medical professional is trained to fight, mange, and control virus up to and including ebola.....or are they saying that any with the knowledge ofstopping the infection from spreading could concor this virus.....no speacial training required....because every military member has just that training.....in fact any one with a st john abulance course could do just that.....

ebola is one of the most deadlist virus on the planet....and requires more protection than just gloves and a mask....sorry...any medical staff guy will tell you that.....

[Derek 2.0]

This is NOT a CBRN environment. Ebola is transmitted between humans in the same way AIDS is.

blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola

objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus

Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.

Do you know what the "B" stands for? After the initial dispersal, biological agents will act like a natural pandemic……none the less, from your link:

Healthcare providers caring for Ebola patients and the family and friends in close contact with Ebola patients are at the highest risk of getting sick because they may come in contact with infected blood or body fluids of sick patients.

During outbreaks of Ebola, the disease can spread quickly within healthcare settings (such as a clinic or hospital). Exposure to Ebola can occur in healthcare settings where hospital staff are not wearing appropriate protective equipment, including masks, gowns, and gloves and eye protection.

So you want send the CF into an environment that is high risk.......why not continue to send professionals from PHAC and fund those already there further?

[Derek 2.0]

So what everyone is saying is that every medical professional is trained to fight, mange, and control virus up to and including ebola.....or are they saying that any with the knowledge ofstopping the infection from spreading could concor this virus.....no speacial training required....because every military member has just that training.....in fact any one with a st john abulance course could do just that.....

ebola is one of the most deadlist virus on the planet....and requires more protection than just gloves and a mask....sorry...any medical staff guy will tell you that.....

What a relief eh? A 17 year old private from the logistic company only needs rubber gloves and a paper mask from Costco.

[Argus]

Do you know what the "B" stands for? After the initial dispersal, biological agents will act like a natural pandemic……none the less, from your link:

I know that biological agents are designed to be spread easily between humans and ebola is not that easily spread. Taking the sorts of precautions described in my post makes it quite unlikely to spread.

So you want send the CF into an environment that is high risk.......why not continue to send professionals from PHAC and fund those already there further?

And how many do we have there? It seems to me that DART was specifically designed to respond to emergency situations where an organized disciplined group can make a lot of difference. Whether as part of a medical response or with an enhanced medical capability added in.

[Argus]

]ebola is one of the most deadlist virus on the planet....and requires more protection than just gloves and a mask....sorry...any medical staff guy will tell you that.....

According to the CDC link I posed gloves, masks and gowns should be fine, along with eye protection.

[Army Guy]

This is NOT a CBRN environment. Ebola is transmitted between humans in the same way AIDS is.

blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola

objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus

Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/

A primary reason it is spreading so quickly in Africa is the confusion, lack of coordination, and lack of a disciplined approach to disease management on the part of local health agencies and workers.

For example, in a Canadian medical setting be it military or not, there are a lot of disposable gowns, gloves, masks, etc. These are put on and taken off and put into special containers for disposal all day long, routinely, by medical professionals. Hand washing is also routine and strongly reinforced by a disciplined setting. This is generally enough to restrain the spread of ebola. In Africa, naturally, there is both a lack of disposable materials and a lack of the inherent discipline on using them and disposing of them.

And while it is not a CBRN enviroment it should be treated just like one.....ebola does not give you any second chances....it is deadly with no cure no vacine, no treatment ......Atleat with nerve gas i can inject myself with antropine ...ebola ,the padra comes over gives you last rites then you get carried out the back door.....

I ask you because nobody else can say why.....Why is it that ebola is required to be kept at a level 4 or higher facility....why do these people that work with ebola get dressed up like NASA getting ready for a space walk..and some people on here are telling me that is bullshit....all you need is a gown some gloves and a mask.....and your golden.....why does the US military team for controling these type s of viruses also get dressed up like nasa.....when it comes to ebola....seem like your doctors who have died are guilty of not practicing the simple basics of washing their hands wearing PPE .....oh wait where they dressed up like NASA....nope, were they in a Full containment suit with its own oxigen system.....nope.....and their dead right.....yup.....see a pattern yet.....

[Argus]

I ask you because nobody else can say why.....Why is it that ebola is required to be kept at a level 4 or higher facility....why do these people that work with ebola get dressed up like NASA getting ready for a space walk.

I would imagine it's because they're dealing with the raw virus where the chance of infection is higher than with, say, getting some blood on your gown.

[Derek 2.0]

I know that biological agents are designed to be spread easily between humans and ebola is not that easily spread. Taking the sorts of precautions described in my post makes it quite unlikely to spread.

Yet the CDC states:

There are important differences between providing care or performing public health tasks in Africa versus in a U.S. hospital.

In field medical settings, additional PPE may be necessary to protect healthcare workers. In some places in Africa, workers may not have the ability to prepare for potential exposures. For example, in some places, care may be provided in clinics with limited resources (e.g., no running water, no climate control, no floors, inadequate medical supplies), and workers could be in those areas for several hours with a number of Ebola infected patients. Additionally, certain job responsibilities and tasks, such as attending to dead bodies, may also require different PPE than what is used when providing care for infected patients in a hospital.

And how many do we have there? It seems to me that DART was specifically designed to respond to emergency situations where an organized disciplined group can make a lot of difference. Whether as part of a medical response or with an enhanced medical capability added in.

I have no idea..........were do you go when you're sick? GP/clinic/hospital or a CFB?

Edited September 26, 2014 by Derek 2.0

[Smallc]

According to some here, we can't do this....it seems like we could.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-troops-arrive-in-west-africa-to-help-fight-ebola-outbreak/article20822003/

[Smallc]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/world/4-new-things-we-re-learning-about-ebola-1.2784194

This should counteract some of the misunderstanding in this thread. A multi departmental Canadian team that includes a military field hospital and armed security would seem to be a good fit to help curb the spread of Ebola.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/world/4-new-things-we-re-learning-about-ebola-1.2784194

This should counteract some of the misunderstanding in this thread. A multi departmental Canadian team that includes a military field hospital and armed security would seem to be a good fit to help curb the spread of Ebola.

Perhaps your link is broken.........nowhere in it does it counter the Federal Government's earlier statement that the army is both not trained, nor equipped to provide healthcare in a quarantined environment………

Notice prior outbreaks on Canadian soil saw responses by civilian healthcare agencies and not the military…..Notice our collective response to this Ebola outbreak is from both Government and NGO healthcare professionals and not the military……….Ponder that.

[Smallc]

What tot government said is that DART is not the tool best used to go. It says nothing about art medical infrastructure or logistics.

[Derek 2.0]

What tot government said is that DART is not the tool best used to go. It says nothing about art medical infrastructure or logistics.

The Canadian Forces do not employ specialists in infectious disease, PHAC does……….The Canadian Forces are not currently, nor planned to be, deployed to West Africa, PHAC is currently there, combined with access to resources within Canada. Unless any of this changes, and it won’t, I will refrain from responding to you further on this subject.