It is Immoral to not abort a Downs Syndrome Foetus?

[Mighty AC]

People with Down Syndrome don't usually live with much more pain/suffering (other than social isolation) than the average person so why abort them? A pain in the ass for the parents but is having a major inconvenience a good excuse to deny someone the right to live?

I don't know. Do you think everyone is capable, mentally and financially, of caring for a child with some very challenging and special needs?

[-1=e^ipi]

At some point my wife and I will either be too old, or too dead, to respond to our sons' needs.

So by 'normal life' you mean 'independent'?

That's the biggie.

I think you are over worrying. There are lots of 17 year olds that lack motivation (autistic or not). Just try to get your son to go to university in an area of interest and that interest should hopefully provide the motivation.

[jbg]

So by 'normal life' you mean 'independent'?

Largely, yes.

I think you are over worrying. There are lots of 17 year olds that lack motivation (autistic or not). Just try to get your son to go to university in an area of interest and that interest should hopefully provide the motivation.

I pray you're right. As a parent I just can't take that chance.

[WestCoastRunner]

Really? If I offer you a new life, but you'll be born without hearing or eyes, would you take it?

Why would anyone not choose life if they had to choose between death and being 'deaf' or choose between death or being 'blind'. What a ridiculous statement. Where do you draw the line Argus, between who lives and who should be aborted?

[-1=e^ipi]

Why would anyone not choose life if they had to choose between death and being 'deaf' or choose between death or being 'blind'. What a ridiculous statement. Where do you draw the line Argus, between who lives and who should be aborted?

Argus is arguing from the position of utilitarianism. What is good for the individual is not necessarily good for the population at large.

[Peter F]

That has been true since mankind crawled out of the sea and has applied to all societies throughout history. There are aspects to each one of us that are not necessarily good for the population at large. Of course to Argus the function of paying taxes is the only measurement of use to society.

If deaf people pay taxes then Argus will find such lives usefull and worthy of living. If they don't pay taxes they are useless - well, useless to Argus that is.

So, no, I don't think Argus is arguing from the position of utilitarianism. He is arguing from the self-centered position of "what have you done for me lately?'

[jacee]

I don't know. Do you think everyone is capable, mentally and financially, of caring for a child with some very challenging and special needs?

I think that's the parents' decision to make.

Down Syndrome kids are often much easier to raise than those with acquired brain injuries from accidents, etc.

.

[Argus]

Your comments about the accountability of women make you a misogynist. Your statements about an abortion being an easy decision and just a routine procedure make you either disingenuous or out of touch.

He's not entirely wrong. Ultimately, a woman can decide she doesn't want a child to intrude into her life because it would be inconvenient at that point, or expensive. Or, if she doesn't believe in abortion she can have the child and give it away without any liability. The male has no choices in this matter. True, he doesn't have to do anything physically, but he has no choice about 'his child' coming into the world, and he has no choice about funding it for the next 18 years, regardless of his economic circumstances.

[Argus]

So, no, I don't think Argus is arguing from the position of utilitarianism. He is arguing from the self-centered position of "what have you done for me lately?'

I do so love it when ideologues of various stripes tell me what I'm saying. How else would I know what my position was?

If you actually examine what I've said I haven't advocated or argued in favour of much of anything. I've merely posed questions.

[Mighty AC]

He's not entirely wrong. Ultimately, a woman can decide she doesn't want a child to intrude into her life because it would be inconvenient at that point, or expensive. Or, if she doesn't believe in abortion she can have the child and give it away without any liability. The male has no choices in this matter. True, he doesn't have to do anything physically, but he has no choice about 'his child' coming into the world, and he has no choice about funding it for the next 18 years, regardless of his economic circumstances.

The comment wasn't about the say or choice a male has in the matter, it was about accountability. He said women don't have to be accountable, they can just have an abortion. I say choosing to have an abortion because you cannot support a child or choosing to give a child up for adoption are both examples of accountability.

[Big Guy]

The comment wasn't about the say or choice a male has in the matter, it was about accountability. He said women don't have to be accountable, they can just have an abortion. I say choosing to have an abortion because you cannot support a child or choosing to give a child up for adoption are both examples of accountability.

I would also suggest that the male had the choice of having sex or not and also the choice of using reliable contraceptive devices - or not.

I would think there is accountability in that.

[-1=e^ipi]

I would also suggest that the male had the choice of having sex or not and also the choice of using reliable contraceptive devices - or not.

I would think there is accountability in that.

Couldn't you use the same argument to suggest that abortions aren't needed because the female had the choice of having sex or not and also the choice of using reliable contraceptive devices or not?

In North America, for males consent to have sex = consent to be a parent. Where as for females, consent to have sex != consent to be a parent.

That is inequality. Males have no reproductive rights beyond consent to have sex.

[Peter F]

You mean the male can't make a woman have an abortion against her will, nor make her carry to term. And so he is deprived of some form of legal right. Right?

[-1=e^ipi]

You mean the male can't make a woman have an abortion against her will, nor make her carry to term. And so he is deprived of some form of legal right. Right?

No, I mean that males should have the option to opt out of a pregnancy that they did consent to such that they will not be legally obligated to provide financial support.

Edited September 8, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[Peter F]

But why should the male be given the option?

[-1=e^ipi]

But why should the male be given the option?

For the sake of equality and fairness.

Do you support the current situation where an underage male can get raped by a female and then have to provide financial support to his raper?

[jacee]

No, I mean that males should have the option to opt out of a pregnancy that they did consent to such that they will not be legally obligated to provide financial support.

Did not consent to sex?

Otherwise ...

Did not consent to pregnancy?

In your dreams, sperm!

.

Edited September 9, 2014 by jacee

[jacee]

For the sake of equality and fairness.

Do you support the current situation where an underage male can get raped by a female and then have to provide financial support to his raper?

No I don't.

You'd have to go to court on that, a criminal charge as well as the support issue.

.

[jacee]

Couldn't you use the same argument to suggest that abortions aren't needed because the female had the choice of having sex or not and also the choice of using reliable contraceptive devices or not?

In North America, for males consent to have sex = consent to be a parent. Where as for females, consent to have sex != consent to be a parent.

That is inequality. Males have no reproductive rights beyond consent to have sex.

Yup ... wrap it up.

Biological reality.

Men can piss fairly privately in public.

Women can breastfeed.

equal != same.

.

[-1=e^ipi]

Biological reality.

Men can piss fairly privately in public.

Women can breastfeed.

equal != same.

You know, this sounds a lot like certain arguments that certain islamist groups would make regarding why they think laws should apply differently between men and women.

Why are you so opposed to male reproductive rights?

[jacee]

You know, this sounds a lot like certain arguments that certain islamist groups would make regarding why they think laws should apply differently between men and women.

Sounds like biological realities to me.

Why are you so opposed to male reproductive rights?

Males have the right to choose to reproduce.

Or not.

Biological realities.

At least women don't eat you after mating.

Your biological reality isn't that bad!

[Peter F]

What reproductive right? Lordy. If men have a right to reproduce then some woman somewhere somewhen must bear a mans child. Its his right, dammit, and if some woman somewhere somewhen refuses to bear his children well dammit she's in violation!

Sorry, the best men can hope for is that some woman somewhere somewhen agrees to bear children for him.

Thus no reproductive Right exists for males. Never has and probably never will.

[-1=e^ipi]

At least women don't eat you after mating.

So your big comeback is 'at least you are not a praying mantis'?

What reproductive right? Lordy. If men have a right to reproduce then some woman somewhere somewhen must bear a mans child. Its his right, dammit, and if some woman somewhere somewhen refuses to bear his children well dammit she's in violation!

There are search engines such as google. Try to use them if you don't know what terms mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_rights#Men.27s_rights

[cybercoma]

Yeah, Peter. You should get your information from Wikipedia.

[Big Guy]

The OP is; “It is Immoral to not abort a Downs Syndrome Foetus?”

Get rid of the double negative and it reads;

Is it moral to abort a Downs Syndrome Foetus?

The question should really read, “Is it moral to abort a foetus BECAUSE it has Downs Syndrome”.

My position is that it is the choice of the mother.