Hudson Jones Posted September 5, 2014 Report Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) Jews who value human rights and free speech will help overpower Zionism. From the letter of Jewish students and faculty etc at the University of Illinois to Chancellor Wise, objecting to the firing of Palestinian Professor Steven Salaita: "Your decision to fire Professor Salaita is in fact what threatens us as Jews. By pointing to anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism in an attempt to obscure politically and financially-motivated University actions, you minimize the Jewish voices of those who have resisted real and violent anti-Semitism. By conflating pointed and justified critique of the Israeli state with anti-Semitism, your administration is effectively disregarding a large and growing number of Jewish perspectives that oppose Israeli military occupation, settler expansion, and the assault on Palestine. We did not survive ethnic cleansing and carry on the legacy of our people to have our existence used to justify the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, or their unethical treatment when they speak out against the murder, violence, and displacement of their own people." Edited September 5, 2014 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
marcus Posted September 15, 2014 Author Report Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) More Jews speaking out against Israel's treatment of Palestinians. This time, elite IDF reservists, including a major and two captains, have sent a letter explaining why their refusal to serve. Reservists from elite IDF intel unit refuse to serve over Palestinian 'persecution' Forty-three signatories, including a major and two captains, in a letter to the prime minister: 'Intelligence is an integral part of Israel's military occupation over the territories.' The 43 unit members who signed the letter, some of whom serve in the reserves, say that the information that is gathered and stored in the army’s systems “harms innocent people. It is used for political persecution and to create divisions within Palestinian society by recruiting collaborators and driving parts of Palestinian society against itself.” For this reason, the signatories say, their consciences do not allow them to continue serving that system and depriving millions of human beings of their rights. Edited September 15, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Big Guy Posted September 17, 2014 Report Posted September 17, 2014 Looks like its time to build up Gaza again for the next round of bombing. This seems to be a make work project every decade to boost the construction industry. I wonder who gets the contracts for rebuilding? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/deal-reached-rebuild-war-ravaged-gaza-201491623426582613.html Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted September 17, 2014 Report Posted September 17, 2014 MLK never said that. MLK would never support Zionism, because it would go against what he fought against, which are inequality and racism. The so-called quote has already been debunked. The Zionist PR machine will stoop to any level, including making up quotes by those with moral credibility in order to win points. Even in the situation where something has been debunked, they continue to repeat. I now have some time to respond to your tripe. To start with you had better to better than try misrepresent what Luther King said and try refocus to people other than him to suit your anti Zionist views. To start with you rely on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Friend I find that interesting because you have come on this board and stated Wikepedia is inaccurate and people shout not rely on it but now you think its convenient for one of your misrepresentations you repeat it verbatum as if its your own position. Lol. Guess what, you better to better do better than that. I am not Black Dog. I don't skip. I walk in this case all over your false misrepresentations. The so called "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" is held by some to be an actual letter from Dr. King to an acquaintance, others say it is a compilation of his statements. The fact is there are many statements he made not just that one. The fact is you have zero proof he did not write it, The fact is wherther its an actual letter or someone took his quote and made an article with it does not change the fact he was pro Zionist as his statements showed and this one would be entirely consistent with all his others. M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." (New York, 1971), pp.'s 234-235 and you are absolutely false in your representation they come from Zionists. That is an utter falsehood but then I expect that from you, out and out false statements that misrepresent and then an attempt to focus away from Martin Luther King's statement to people that are more suitable to your hate agenda for Israel. Your attempt to refocus from what he said is transparent and false and so is the attempt to revise his beliefs to suit yours. Absolute and utter fabrication on your part and people can read what he wrote from the above source and it reads as follows: ". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth. "Anti-semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so. "Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them. "The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country. "How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfillment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less. "And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism. "The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'! "My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate anti-Semitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it." Now you want to mirepresent Hudson Jones that Martin Luther King was not a Zionist supporter I will now debunk you with pleasure. It is a fact that Martin Luther King speaking at the annual convention of the Rabbinical Assembly in 1968, Dr. King stated the following: “The response of some of the so-called young militants does not represent the position of the vast majority of Negroes. There are some who are color-consumed and they see a kind of mystique in blackness or in being colored, and anything non-colored is condemned. We do not follow that course ... Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect her right to exist, its territorial integrity and the right to use whatever sea lanes it needs. Israel is one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security, and that security must be a reality," You want to deny that? do you? You want to come on this forum and misrepresent it? Go on try. Good luck. By the way the actual Luther King speaking is at: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/MLKandIsrael.html Your problem Hudson Jones is your attempts to misrepresent history are easy to show as false. How easy? As the above source says there are a series of letters released in 2013 by Israel's State Archives that document some of the correspondence between Dr. King and members of the Jewish and Israeli leadership who were instrumental in the quest to bring him to Israel during the 1960's: •February 27, 1963: Ben-Zion Ilan (Histadrut Representative in the United States) to Martin Luther King Jr. [PDF] •March 20, 1965: Avraham Harman (Israeli Ambassador to the US) to Martin Luther King Jr. [PDF] •June 2, 1965: Irving Engel (Honorary President, American Jewish Committee) to Martin Luther King, Jr. [PDF] •July 12, 1965: Martin Luther King, Jr. to Irving Engel [PDF] •July 27, 1965: Avraham Harman to Moshe Bitan (Director of the US Division, Jerusalem) [PDF] •July 28, 1965: Irving Engel to Avraham Harman [PDF] •August 2, 1965: Irving Engel to Martin Luther King, Jr. [PDF] •May 17, 1966: Martin Luther King Jr. to Abraham Harman [PDF] •May 9, 1967: Martin Luther King Jr. to Levi Eshkol (Israeli Prime Minister) [PDF] Only a fool would try deny the above letters were not written by Martin Luther King or the Israeli government proving his friendship and Israel's planning to honour him in Israel. What makes you even more repugnant to me in your attempts to misrepresent Luther King is he attended my temple. I was there as a young man when he came and spoke. He told us to stand proud as a people in our own country and never to allow people like you to defame our identity. Oh I listened. Quote
Rue Posted September 17, 2014 Report Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Lucky for him that he's not a Palestinian child. I now have time to respond directly to your comment. You have never been to Gaza or the West Bank or Israel. You make comments on this forum such as the above that show you try get personal with me. You know nothing about me. You also try make comments that suggest you feel for and represent and speak for Palestinian children. You do not. You use them as you have the above for your own personal political agenda. You think because you hate Israel and have an agenda to come on this board and bad mouth it, you can now accuse it of harming Palestinian children.. You know nothing about me and what I had to do or witness in Gaza or the West Bank. You know nothing of what work I did in either place . You know nothing as to what I witnessed, experienced and did with Palestinian children. You also do not know the work I did with Israeli children. What I know and this forum knows from reading your hate, is that you claim to worry about Palestinian children but don't give a rat's ass about Israeli children. The difference between us is I see children. I do not see them as Palestinian or Israeli. You on the other hand are so blinded by your hatred you can only define children through prefacing them to their nationality. All that shows is you have no clue what children are and what has happened to them in the Middle East. They are just a pathetic context or excuse for you to engage in your Israel bashing. Edited September 17, 2014 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted September 17, 2014 Report Posted September 17, 2014 This thread failed to exploit holocaust suvivors to demonize and insult Israel's right to exist. So its evolved past that to simply bashing Israel. I suggest you change the thread title to a more appropriate heading: ISRAEL IS KA KA It captures the essence of this pathetic attempt to disparage the right of Jews to live in their own state. Look Ma, I found a site that quotes Jews that hate Israel! Quote
jbg Posted September 18, 2014 Report Posted September 18, 2014 Looks like its time to build up Gaza again for the next round of bombing. This seems to be a make work project every decade to boost the construction industry. I wonder who gets the contracts for rebuilding? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/deal-reached-rebuild-war-ravaged-gaza-201491623426582613.html If Gaza would have concentrated on economic development when Israel left in 2005 this devastation would not have been necessary. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
marcus Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) If Gaza would have concentrated on economic development when Israel left in 2005 this devastation would not have been necessary. That is a superficial statement. Gaza was put under sanctions as soon as Hamas came to power. Devastating sanctions that paved the road for the Gaza blockade/siege. How is this population supposed to see economic development when Israel has been controlling everything that has been going in and out of the open air prison and manage to violate international law by targeting and indiscriminately killing civilians once every 2 years? When fishing boats are being shot at by Israeli navy boats when they haven't even reached the 3 miles limit they are supposedly allowed to go into, how are these fishermen supposed to contribute to the economic development of Gaza? Edited September 18, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
jbg Posted September 18, 2014 Report Posted September 18, 2014 That is a superficial statement. Gaza was put under sanctions as soon as Hamas came to power. Devastating sanctions that paved the road for the Gaza blockade/siege.Hamas didn't come to power right away. There was a year and a half in between. They did start fighting right away. What was Israel supposed to do? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
marcus Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Posted September 18, 2014 What was Israel supposed to do? That is one of the more cowardly responses that comes from the Israeli propaganda machine. It's like an abusive person who hits people and then throws his hands in the air and says: "what was I supposed to do?!" Like you have no choice. What Israel could have done was not impose sanctions against Hamas and Gaza. What Israel could have done was to respect the election process where the people of Gaza elected Hamas. You don't see the world imposing sanctions because Bibi was elected or because the racist Lieberman was chosen as part of the government. You ask these impossible questions like people are stupid. You seriously wonder why Gaza's economy didn't prosper, considering what Israel has been doing to it? Seriously, get real. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Rue Posted September 18, 2014 Report Posted September 18, 2014 JBG there is zero point responding to this thread. Quote
marcus Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Posted September 18, 2014 Yes. There is no point. How can you spin the following? Maybe "self-hating Jews" is the way to go: - Holocaust survivors speaking out against Israel's actions. - Reservists from elite IDF intel unit refuse to serve over Palestinian 'persecution' - Jewish students and faculty speak out against punishing people for defending the rights of Palestinians - Gandhi, Mandela, Tutu, Malcom X, Christopher Hitchens speaking out against Zionism and Israel's treatment of Palestinians - American Jews Turning Against AIPAC - The End of Liberal Zionism - Israel’s Move to the Right Challenges Diaspora Jews The reality and the undeniable change in support of diaspora Jews for Israel is something that you're having a hard time accepting. Best not to respond to the thread. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
jbg Posted September 18, 2014 Report Posted September 18, 2014 What Israel could have done was not impose sanctions against Hamas and Gaza. What Israel could have done was to respect the election process where the people of Gaza elected Hamas.Respect it, fine. But Hamas made clear that their agenda was war. If Canada elected a PM whose platform was armed struggle and terror attacks on the U.S. do you think we'd just sit there? You don't see the world imposing sanctions because Bibi was elected or because the racist Lieberman was chosen as part of the government.Did even Lieberman ever threaten to throw the Arabs into the sea? You ask these impossible questions like people are stupid. You seriously wonder why Gaza's economy didn't prosper, considering what Israel has been doing to it? Seriously, get real.You sickly twisted my post. What I was saying was that if Gaza had made clear that they came in peace and wanted to develop economically do you think Israel would have responded in an aggressive manner? JBG there is zero point responding to this thread.Thanks, That gave me a good laugh during a very depressing time in my life. It's fun to torture idiots. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Hudson Jones Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 You are either a supporter of a racist state, which violates international law and violates the rights of a group of people or you denounce it. More and more Jews are denouncing Israel because they know and accept what they're doing is wrong. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 Israel has a lot more support than the rights of terrorists...always will. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 Are you calling Palestinian people terrorists? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Are you calling Palestinian people terrorists? No, I'm calling their elected leadership (Hamas) terrorists, as recognized by several nations. Edited September 19, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 No, I'm calling their elected leadership (Hamas) terrorists, as recognized by several nations. I'm glad you're no longer saying "internationally" recognized terrorist group. It's okay to be against two criminal groups at the same time. Just because they are enemies, it doesn't mean that you can't condemn both of their actions. (Not to say that I believe it's a 50/50 situation) Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 ....It's okay to be against two criminal groups at the same time. Just because they are enemies, it doesn't mean that you can't condemn both of their actions. (Not to say that I believe it's a 50/50 situation) It's also OK to support Israel 100% without any equivocation, as it is no more "criminal" than any other state. Palestine = failed leadership + failed policies Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 It's OK as long as you keep your blinders firmly in place. Ya know, keep those illegal settlements out of your field of "vision" Quote
marcus Posted September 19, 2014 Author Report Posted September 19, 2014 It's also OK to support Israel 100% without any equivocation It's okay only if you lack morality and don't believe in international law. The very thing that created the State of Israel. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 It's okay only if you lack morality and don't believe in international law. The very thing that created the State of Israel. It's OK even if you do....that's how Canada and the United States came to be. Zionism > Terrorism Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 It's OK even if you do....that's how Canada and the United States came to be. Zionism > Terrorism The Nazis also practiced... Nazism. Does that mean it is okay for a country to say, "hey! someone else did it in the past - why can't we?!" Zionism = Terrorism Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) The Nazis also practiced... Nazism. Does that mean it is okay for a country to say, "hey! someone else did it in the past - why can't we?!" Zionism = Terrorism Yes...it does, when faced with an existential threat. Godwin's Law has been invoked. Edited September 19, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
BubberMiley Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 Bubber's Law is that you can't mention Nazis on an Internet forum without someone using Godwin's Law as a crutch to try to shut down a losing debate. Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
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