"dickering" at hard games of politics with men

[RB]

I am doing a bit of writing in regards to power, and representation of women from of course a feminist perspective on professions and won’t mind some engaging discussion from any viewpoint -

First I was looking at an article from The Honourable Sharon Carstairs who wrote “Politics: Is it a woman’s game” She ran for leadership of the Liberal Party in Manitoba.

It tells how the media criticise and ridicule her voice (minnie mouse, machine gun delivery). At first she alloted the voice nuiances to the shape of her mouth, she is a “big girl”, well how convenient because the media also talk about her bigness, her clothes and size.

Women get this kind of scrutiny a lot in politics, and interesting no one ever mentions who or what the men are wearing, so is it to do with gender?

I put it down to this that the women are not taken seriously when it comes to professions especially in politics.

First they are refuse consideration in a kinder way, like it is what is “best” for the party. That “best” is the women it seem have no influence and have to earn every bit of the grilling step they make forward.

What I mean is there is something of a “norm” set for men. Look if you are a man you work hard you are recognised for your efforts. When we talk about leaders what kind of image comes to mind, (a male)another “norm”.

It is true in a race for leadership and power men are always winners. Politics is a profession for men.

For women politics is different, it is not a career or a profession, it is a side interest. They women are bored at home, and haphazardly enter into politics so they are not taken very seriously hence the explanation of the talking of clothes. For the women no serious consideration is given.

The men they deal and the favours as a precedent goes to you know who er no I am not mentioning any scandals. The men they take care of each other.

So I did find it disturbing that the media articles were written by women, that they pay lip service to the stereotyping of women.

When Sharon resign she asked for commentary she was told that she intimidated other women.

Yes, it is strange that we look to criticise a woman’s voice when ironically women it seem have no voice in politics.

Well it not just about politics but this sort of stuff exists in other professions. This is an example of the medical field. And it starts with the medical students and educators. Think about it as “SOCIAL LOCATION”. Social location is the way we see ourselves in the locations reflected. Well no grudges that some folks are wealthy and can afford med school – it would actually be a “norm”. but some groups of people who are not the norm get interwoven in social situations and experience powerlessness.

OK, so doctors are from some social class. It means they fit easily, and in the environment you work reflect the people you are, the same as the politics. Acceptance is given as a norm. A doctor is usually a heterosexual, and male (this is stereotyped) so patients are receptive to this sort of images.

From a critical view this may seem already to be an advantageous position for males.

So enters the female and of course she is mistaken to be a nurse. The female as the case with the politician is not the “norm” to start with, besides nurses are not profession. doctors are. so now the social location is different, so now the female becomes maginalize, hence she becomes more aware of her location and has to try much harder that extra step to win the patient trust.

Even worst enters the colour doctor, they are usually mistaken for the cleaners. I wonder about the representation of colors in politics

From a patient situation do the "doctors" connect with them especially if they are not mainstream?. Well all I meant is that the male doctor perspective is not necessarily the patients or other groups such as women, gays, lesbians etc but still the promotion of some groups and exclusion of others exists

Meg Urry, physics professor, Yale sums it up, men are leaders at every high level profession, expectation of women are much lower. And it goes it hierarchy situation is different for women, more different for minorities, and sets apart when it comes to gays and lesbians.

It is usually insidious when men say "things are getting better, slow and sure"

yes we acknowledge slow but surely.

so yes we have 4 women here and 21 women there and still -- look what they wear.

But what this slow and sure usually means is that don’t worry your pretty head over this. Far to trivial.

[maplesyrup]

Belinda Stronach's campaign for the leadership of the Conservative party is an excellent example of what often happens to women in politics. The Conservatives, the angry white men, themselves ridiculed her, destroying her leadership possibilities, and elected one of their own the neanderthal Harper, who blew the election with his stone age ideas.

Had Stronach been elected leader, the Conservatives might now be in power.

Just wait for the howls of indignation though.

[caesar]

For women politics is different, it is not a career or a profession, it is a side interest. They women are bored at home, and haphazardly enter into politics so they are not taken very seriously hence the explanation of the talking of clothes. For the women no serious consideration is given.

This is nonsense. Women enter politics for the same reasons as men. Most are probably more serious about making a public contribution. In other words; to make changes to better our country. Many men; seem to enter for reasons of power and future considerations. (payback) aIt is time we took females running for election more seriously. It is a disgrace; that no female has had a serious full term position as Prime Minister or Premier. I am not considering Kim Campbell nor Rita ?? from BC's short term leadership. They were only allowed to "win" the leadership after the previous male leader camaged the party's image beyond repair for some considerable time.

[Newfie Canadian]

I agree with caesar.

I don't think women consider politics a side interest.

Unfortunately, it sdoesn't look like there will be a female running things in Canada for a while.

The only one close is Mclellan, and she'll never get the job.

Layton is new so he won't be going anywhere anytime soon, plus female NDP leaders haven't had stellar performances as party leaders.

I leave the Bloc out as they can't form the government.

The Conservatives. I don't know if Stronach would take another shot at it, and she'd have to be better at controlling candidates than Harper was. I don't know of any other high profile conservatives.

[kimmy]

When Belinda Stronach entered the CPC leadership race, I didn't know much about her... and when I watched her talk she seemed kind of nervous and not very good at articulating her opinions... and there were lots of questions about her experience and whether she'd achieved anything on her own. So I didn't really know what to think of her as a potential Prime Minister.

However, some of the media coverage of her was absolutely disgraceful. "Blonde Ambition!" exclaimed the Toronto Sun. "Blonde Date: Who Should Get Belinda's Rose?" asked the Toronto Sun in another article, wondering which handsome young parlimentarian bachelor might be a good mate for her. The Ottawa Sun apparently ran photo features on her legs, shoes, and stockings. Aside from Syrup's man-crush on Jack Layton, has a male politician's fashion sense ever been the subject of so much reportage? Certainly the mentally retarded hacks at the Sun chain of papers don't represent all Canadian media, which was for the most part able to stay out of the gutter with regard to Stronach. Not all Canadians were as open minded. I saw her dismissed as a "bimbo" by posters on a number of forums, for maybe no reason other than her hair color. The neanderthal who distributed "Parliament Hill Barbie" flyers at one of her events was the last straw for me. After that, I was hoping she'd win, whatever her merits, just to make that prick choke on it.

Going back through some of the old threads on this very forum, I found Belinda Stronach called "The Magna Tarta", "Paris Hilton", saw suggestions that she could flash a breast during debates to gain votes, and "challenge Paul Martin to a cook off".

It is our right as observers to be critical and even insulting about our politicians... but the tone of these comments says much more about the people who made them than about Stronach.

-kimmy

[August1991]

I put it down to this that the women are not taken seriously when it comes to professions especially in politics.

What about Margaret Thatcher?

has a male politician's fashion sense ever been the subject of so much reportage?

What about Pierre Trudeau?

----

Judy Lamarsh may have a hard time of it in the 1960s but I think frankly, if any good woman candidate came forward now, she would be reasonably well-received. Gender alone is not an issue. For heaven's sakes, two women were just named to the Supreme Court and I heard nary a comment on their clothing styles.

The more fundamental question, in my view, is why more men choose the occupation of politics than women. Well, more women choose to be real estate agents. But more men choose to be police officers. More women choose to go to university than men. But more men choose to be car mechanics.

BD will argue that these are examples of "systemic sexism" or some such. I'll have nothing of it. Kids today are free to choose. The limits are not imposed by gender.

Girls and boys are different. Their differences are starting to be recognized. The CBC aired a fascinating NFB documentary It's a Girl's World which deserves a look.

RB, your long ramble is filled with pseudo-theory; that is, there are ad hoc explanations for observed facts. For example:

Social location is the way we see ourselves in the locations reflected.

Pick up any sociology textbook from the 1950s and have a good giggle.

Kimmy, your defense of Stronach is touching. But the fact is she was a light weight. [i saw her in the debate here in Montreal and it was almost pathetic.] How did the press treat Peter Pocklington when he ran? How would they have treated Pocklington's 35 year old son if he had run?

[RB]

Women enter politics for the same reasons as men.

there is no disagreement here. women are very serious about whatever professions they choose to enter into, whether they are allowed in and how far is part of their powerlessness. and i would like to point that they usually have the skills, abilities, compentencies and qualification to do a good job. well i have my reservations about Belinda.

but my point is that generally women are not taken seriously and will get nowhere if there is not some change in the power balance afterall the males dominate this political profession. i was thinking firstly that maybe an attitude shift is what is needed for acceptance but this is not my view any longer.

so enters 2 women for the federal courts a precedent yes in many ways. a demonstration, a first public televised hearing and public review. these women are competent nevermind the newspaper alluding still to the nurturing of the system, these are symbolic words used to put women in a subservient postion. I question whether we can say that the men would nurture the policies when they are selected also if it were 2 men appointed would all this even been an issue.

its more like women are coined the "monopoly of the disinterest" to serve the country.

Here is Peggy McIntosh

Link: http://www.utoronto.ca/acc/events/peggy1.htm

"I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to improve women's status, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended."

Here is some observations from Peggy -

Apply it yourself: Characteristics: white & male

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

6. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

10. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

11. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

12. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals,the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

13. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

14. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

15. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

16. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

17. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

18. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge," I will be facing a person of my race.

19. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

20. I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

21. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, out numbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.

22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.

23. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

24. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

25. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.

26. I can choose blemish cover or bandages in flesh color and have them more or less match my skin.

These are other observations

1. where are you from, no exactly where you are from

2. how do you say your name

3. you do not look Canadian

4. i was reading an article where the Bay Street folks were interviewing some law students from York U and then mentioning professions – the top lawyer recruiter (male of course) jokes that prostitutes work better hours than lawyers – 2 females were present. No problem?

the point is he assumes those women were heterosexuality and it probably never occur to him that the females might be lesbians

5. eyebrow raised..you are Indian, I would not have known – Indians apparently are suppose to be homogenous like whites

6. whites are not the ones subjected to loud slow replies as if the receiving person were deaf and also dumb – also the sheer arrogance – repeat - did you get that, this happens even when English is the only language the others understand

7. this is from a man viewpoint – he expresses he feels sorry for the man that stands in a woman’s way. we hear this a lot.

naturally it does not occur to him that the woman may “stand in the way” of the man – this is inconceivable

[August1991]

19. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

Peggy McIntosh? University of Toronto? IRS? Huh?

RB, please provide a link and a short quote only. Greg gets touchy about copyright. I get touchy about verbiage.

----

I have spent the better part of my life living in situations where I was distinctly in the minority - whether determined by my race, mother tongue, gender, religion. IME, you either make a big deal of this or you don't. I noticed that any cartel/conspiracy of the majority to gang up on me usually fell apart. Somebody would talk to me.

IOW, each of us is a microscopic minority of one and both sides can benefit in a good conversation.

Canadians are a minority in North America and French-speaking Canadians are a minority in Canada. Your quote of an American document is ample evidence of the situation. But neither is it a big deal. So, what's your point?

[kimmy]

has a male politician's fashion sense ever been the subject of so much reportage?

What about Pierre Trudeau?

Was Syrup a member of the press corps back then?

Kimmy, your defense of Stronach is touching. But the fact is she was a light weight.  [i saw her in the debate here in Montreal and it was almost pathetic.]  How did the press treat Peter Pocklington when he ran?  How would they have treated Pocklington's 35 year old son if he had run?

I'm not upset at all that the press was critical of her abilities and qualifications. As I wrote, I shared a lot of those doubts about her experience and her ability to articulate.

What did upset me was the nature of some of the coverage she received, and the nature of some of the attacks made against her. Pocklington or Pocklington Jr might have been subjected to a lot of unqualified rich-guy criticism, but I doubt they were ever subjected to anything comparable to:

-"Blonde Ambition!"

-"Blonde Date: Who Should Get Belinda's Rose?"

-the Ottawa Sun apparently ran a photo feature on her legs, shoes, and stockings.

-"bimbo"

-"Parliament Hill Barbie"

-"The Magna Tarta"

-"Paris Hilton"

-suggestions that she could flash a breast during debates to gain votes

-"challenge Paul Martin to a cook-off"

That's why I found the tone of the coverage personally offensive, and would have loved to see some of these neanderthals choke on their words.

-kimmy

[caesar]

Brenda Stronach needs more time in politics before she should attempt to take on running the country. I do believe that Christy Clark left politics here in BC as she saw the "old boys network" would ensure that she would not get a chance to become Premier unless the party is completley down in the polls facing extinction such as what happened to Rita " whats her name" and Kim Campbell.

Perhaps, as women; we will have to abandon voting for our favorite party and vote for the strongest female candidate in our area. Time for a revolt.

[maplesyrup]

August1991.....the reality is you have no clue what it is like to be a minority, so please spare us the crocadile tears, eh!

[Cartman]

I think that you should ask male and female professors about how students evaluate them. Female professors will tell you that they often receive unwanted comments about their appearances while male profs. rarely receive these kinds of comments.

[August1991]

August1991.....the reality is you have no clue what it is like to be a minority, so please spare us the crocadile tears, eh!

MS, does this mean *sniff* we're no longer friends?

-"Blonde Ambition!"

-"Blonde Date: Who Should Get Belinda's Rose?"

-the Ottawa Sun apparently ran a photo feature on her legs, shoes, and stockings.

-"bimbo"

-"Parliament Hill Barbie"

-"The Magna Tarta"

-"Paris Hilton"

-suggestions that she could flash a breast during debates to gain votes

-"challenge Paul Martin to a cook-off"

That's why I found the tone of the coverage personally offensive, and would have loved to see some of these neanderthals choke on their words.

Far be it from me to defend the Sun papers. (I prefer the Journal de Montréal approach - or even Allô Police. Cut to the blood and guts and skip the editorial filler.)

But Belinda ran as, well, Belinda. To my knowledge, she never went to university and interviews with her fellow high school students seemed to tend towards "how nice" she was. At the debate in Montreal, her section seemed to be filled with young women in T-shirts.

Margaret Thatcher would never have run a campaign like that. (Heck, neither would Anne Mclellan, Flora Macdonald, Sheila Copps or Kim Campbell.)

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who runs for the leadership of a national party using only their first name is inviting accusations of being a Ken Boy in a Ken World. Remember Joe Who?

Look Kimmy, political operators want to win elections (and shareholders want returns). These people could not give a damn who the person is as long as the goods get delivered. The profit motive killed the old boys network, if it ever really existed. As far as I can see, greed was not invented in the 1960s.

[Slavik44]

August1991.....the reality is you have no clue what it is like to be a minority, so please spare us the crocadile tears, eh!

MS, does this mean *sniff* we're no longer friends?

-"Blonde Ambition!"

-"Blonde Date: Who Should Get Belinda's Rose?"

-the Ottawa Sun apparently ran a photo feature on her legs, shoes, and stockings.

-"bimbo"

-"Parliament Hill Barbie"

-"The Magna Tarta"

-"Paris Hilton"

-suggestions that she could flash a breast during debates to gain votes

-"challenge Paul Martin to a cook-off"

That's why I found the tone of the coverage personally offensive, and would have loved to see some of these neanderthals choke on their words.

Far be it from me to defend the Sun papers. (I prefer the Journal de Montréal approach - or even Allô Police. Cut to the blood and guts and skip the editorial filler.)

But Belinda ran as, well, Belinda. To my knowledge, she never went to university and interviews with her fellow high school students seemed to tend towards "how nice" she was. At the debate in Montreal, her section seemed to be filled with young women in T-shirts.

Margaret Thatcher would never have run a campaign like that. (Heck, neither would Anne Mclellan, Flora Macdonald, Sheila Copps or Kim Campbell.)

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who runs for the leadership of a national party using only their first name is inviting accusations of being a Ken Boy in a Ken World. Remember Joe Who?

Look Kimmy, political operators want to win elections (and shareholders want returns). These people could not give a damn who the person is as long as the goods get delivered. The profit motive killed the old boys network, if it ever really existed. As far as I can see, greed was not invented in the 1960s.

who wants to go to university when you can achieve this by not going.

She is a member of the Dean’s Council at the John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, and the Dean’s Advisory Council at the Joseph L. Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto. In 2003, Belinda received an Honorary Doctor of Laws degree from the Michael G. DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University.

[kimmy]

But Belinda ran as, well, Belinda.

Yay! Light refreshments and free parking!!

To my knowledge, she never went to university and interviews with her fellow high school students seemed to tend towards "how nice" she was.  At the debate in Montreal, her section seemed to be filled with young women in T-shirts.

Good for them. Hasn't the disinterest of youth in politics been a topic of much lament, and the conservatives' inability to reach youth a particular worry for them? And yet her appeal to this demographic makes Stronach a target deserving of dumb sexist attacks?

Margaret Thatcher would never have run a campaign like that.  (Heck, neither would Anne Mclellan, Flora Macdonald, Sheila Copps or Kim Campbell.)

I've never witnessed Thatcher, Copps, Flora, Campbell in action. I did see Anne McLellan's election campaign, however. Although different in tone, the theme was somewhat similar. Large emphasis on the candidate's physical appearance, itty bitty mention that she was running as a Liberal. In McLellan's case, the photography was designed to make her look scholarly yet friendly, studious but fun, and assertive but not in pushy-assertive. I read an article about this in a local paper-- great care was taken in choosing the eyeglasses and hairstyle to convey the attitude they wanted. They weren't packaging beauty as Team Belinda arguably was, but they definitely put a lot of attention into creating an image, and the prevalence of McLellan's face on advertising during the election tells me that it was a big consideration in their strategy.

I can't imagine why Campbell wouldn't have gone with lawn-signs proclaiming "Kimmy!" ...it sounds like a can't-miss strategy to me!

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who runs for the leadership of a national party using only their first name is inviting accusations of being a Ken Boy in a Ken World.  Remember Joe Who?

uh, no

Did he have a similar strategy when he entered poligics?

Look Kimmy, political operators want to win elections (and shareholders want returns).  These people could not give a damn who the person is as long as the goods get delivered.  The profit motive killed the old boys network, if it ever really existed.  As far as I can see, greed was not invented in the 1960s.

Oh, I agree. The "old boys" didn't beat Belinda... they backed her, in fact, viewing her as more appealing to Ontario voters and moderate voters. It doesn't change my feeling about the kind of attention she received. I also bristle when I hear Harper attacked as Albertan, or Svend attacked as a homosexual. Generally speaking, politicians in Canada is a little smarter than that (or at least, they have been since the ad mocking Chretien's mangled grill blew up so badly on the PC party...) but not everybody seems to get the picture.

-kimmy

[RB]

Peggy McIntosh? University of Toronto? IRS? Huh?

The Peggy McIntosh piece is her shared experience and can be applied to the males but whoever you are the idea was to imagine for an instant that you share the experience. Some folks are very privileged, and also born into an advantageous position. It is not very often a person can step outside of themself and recognise such a privilege. Men mostly deny they have a priviledge. And I always suspect the denial is to protect themselves of hardship.

women experiences are of powerlessness - they don't control the practices, the projected myths, the images, the criticism whatever that confronts them.

you either make a big deal of this or you don't

Women and their issue are big until such a time there is some compromise of power balance

[Cartman]

It is not very often a person can step outside of themself and recognise such a privilege. Men mostly deny they have a priviledge. And I always suspect the denial is to protect themselves of hardship.

Perhaps that is part of it, but I think that there is a belief that one had better dearly protect what they have accumulated (wealth and power etc), because there is always the distinct possibility of losing it. I suppose it is the same thing stated differently, but fear is a great motivator.

[Big Blue Machine]

Women have the heart and men have the smarts in politics. I don't mean to sound sexist.

[RB]

oh men have the hearts also perhaps i am too kind giving them both ... but the smarts part is what is questionable

men reflect their peripheral - thats a criticism

their thinking is that some of the issues women are bringing up are already dealt with and irrelavant

but look the human rights recieves at least 300 complaints per year 95% of it is filed by women - its a problem

there is a huge pay difference between the genders - its a barrier

stats show that women are at disadvantage - its chronic hardship

there is no backlash here women are the ones looking for equal bargains

i was thinking maybe there is a way to desensitise the male myth of being a protector of women and for once get rid of their fear, that they must have wealth, and more wealth, and power, but you see under the common law in parts of canada a wife is still a dependant of the husband .. so thats just great