Purebred = Animal Abuse?

[Mighty AC]

For example, Golden and Labrador Retrievers and Newfoundlands are commonly bred for their utter ferocity.

Goldens are well known for being a docile breed. German Shephards also share a susceptibility to the same type of cancer that plagues Goldens and are more fierce. That along with their loyalty and ability to be easily trained make them excellent guard dogs. Edited August 14, 2014 by Mighty AC

[jbg]

Goldens are well known for being a docile breed. German Shephards also share a susceptibility to the same type of cancer that plagues Goldens and are more fierce. That along with their loyalty and ability to be easily trained make them excellent guard dogs.

My father-in-law also had a German Shepherd at one point that was partial enough to me that he "pee'd" in excitement when I came. Goldens are ferocious enough that they hit with their tail.

[Wilber]

We had Labs in our home for over 35 years. Tough, full of fun and great with kids because they are big kids.. They are very active dogs that will eat themselves to death, so you need to control their diet and give them lots of exercise or you will have a fat unhealthy dog. The reason we still walk for over an hour before breakfast every morning, regardless of weather is because of those dogs, even though we said goodbye to the last one four years ago. All except one came from private homes, the other was a registered dog from a breeder that was given to us. He was a nice dog but did have problems and we had to put him down at 7 because of bad siezures that medication couldn't control. The others eventually succumbed to the kind of things that kill old people. As any vet will tell you, the bigger the dog, the shorter the lifespan.

[Wilber]

My father-in-law also had a German Shepherd at one point that was partial enough to me that he "pee'd" in excitement when I came. Goldens are ferocious enough that they hit with their tail.

Love that. We had a big black lab that beat a corn plant in our family room to death with his tail. No coffee table was safe with him around.

[jbg]

Love that. We had a big black lab that beat a corn plant in our family room to death with his tail. No coffee table was safe with him around.

Did it growl and bite alot?

[Wilber]

Did it growl and bite alot?

No, but he would drink my beer. If I left an open beer where he could reach it, he would knock it over and lap it up. Had a female who also liked beer. I put a couple of bottles in a lake to let them cool one time and she went and fished them out.

[jbg]

No, but he would drink my beer. If I left an open beer where he could reach it, he would knock it over and lap it up. Had a female who also liked beer. I put a couple of bottles in a lake to let them cool one time and she went and fished them out.

Sounds like she was smart. How did she carry a glass bottle in her mouth?

And how dangerous to people was this dog?

[jbg]

What a very strange response to dog ownership. You have obviously never developed a relationship with a dog, and if you have, you have never enjoyed the benefits resulting from this relationship, nor have you observed the genuine enjoyment a dog experiences with its owner.

For a rare time we agree. It's one of the few ways to get unconditional love. I am happily married and that love is still not unconditional.

[Wilber]

Sounds like she was smart. How did she carry a glass bottle in her mouth?

And how dangerous to people was this dog?

She was smart, she just grsbbed it by the end and pulled it out. Non violent but she would argue vocally. It was quite a riot.

[Big Guy]

She was smart, she just grsbbed it by the end and pulled it out. Non violent but she would argue vocally. It was quite a riot.

Now THERE is a trait that is worth encouraging in selective breeding!

[jbg]

She was smart, she just grsbbed it by the end and pulled it out. Non violent but she would argue vocally. It was quite a riot.

What I was asking is how do a dog's teeth gain traction on a glass bottle?

[Wilber]

What I was asking is how do a dog's teeth gain traction on a glass bottle?

Around the top like she was sucking on it, then she just dragged it. Didn't look particularly easy but she could do it.

[Mighty AC]

What I was asking is how do a dog's teeth gain traction on a glass bottle?

Weego does it this way.

[AngusThermopyle]

Dogs fetching beer are cute but now back to the subject at hand, animal cruelty. I believe those concerned about pet ownership being cruel should maybe concern themselves with a real problem such as this, not some fabricated fallacy.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.891988287497621.1073742001.168127143217076&type=1

She is just one of many who are found like this and rescuers do what they can but the numbers are overwhelming. As you can see she's one of those psycho killer, snap without warning Pitbulls. The fact is, that is a myth, unfortunately due to such myths these dogs are the most abused of any type in North America. They can thank sensationalist mainstream media and misreporting of incidents along with a misinformed public for this rep.

Edited August 15, 2014 by AngusThermopyle

[jbg]

Dogs fetching beer are cute but now back to the subject at hand, animal cruelty. I believe those concerned about pet ownership being cruel should maybe concern themselves with a real problem such as this, not some fabricated fallacy.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.891988287497621.1073742001.168127143217076&type=1

She is just one of many who are found like this and rescuers do what they can but the numbers are overwhelming. As you can see she's one of those psycho killer, snap without warning Pitbulls. The fact is, that is a myth, unfortunately due to such myths these dogs are the most abused of any type in North America. They can thank sensationalist mainstream media and misreporting of incidents along with a misinformed public for this rep.

Golden and Labrador Retrievers, and Newfoundlands are more your "snap without warning" dogs, at least in this country. I gather by the commentary that it's different up there with those breeds; one of the many big differences between our countries.

[Mighty AC]

The fact is, that is a myth, unfortunately due to such myths these dogs are the most abused of any type in North America. They can thank sensationalist mainstream media and misreporting of incidents along with a misinformed public for this rep.

Breeds have been selected for specific traits and Pit Bulls are descendants of English bull-bating dogs which were bred to bite and hold onto bulls, bears and other large animals. When baiting was banned less than 200 years ago, these dogs were used for dog fighting and bred to be quicker, more athletic and aggressive attackers. Individuals can certainly vary and genetics does not completely determine an organisms disposition but members of this breed have been selected for very aggressive traits until fairly recently.

As a result Pitt Bulls are responsible for the vast majority of dog attack fatalities. Pitt Bulls account for less than 5% of dogs in the US yet they were responsible for 70% of fatalities in 2011. 61% in 2012 and 78% in 2013. A 9 year study shows that Pitt Bulls are responsible for more fatalities than all other breeds combined. Again, despite representing a small portion of the dog population. http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/9-year-dog-bite-fatality-chart-dogsbiteorg.pdf

"I tell people right off the bat, if you want a dog-park-type dog, a dog you can just run off-leash, please do not get a pit bull," Ami Ciontos, founder and president of the Atlanta Underdog Initiative, a pit bull rescue group.

http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

[jbg]

As a result Pitt Bulls are responsible for the vast majority of dog attack fatalities. Pitt Bulls account for less than 5% of dogs in the US yet they were responsible for 70% of fatalities in 2011. 61% in 2012 and 78% in 2013. A 9 year study shows that Pitt Bulls are responsible for more fatalities than all other breeds combined. Again, despite representing a small portion of the dog population. http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/9-year-dog-bite-fatality-chart-dogsbiteorg.pdf

In my area, Great Danes, Beagles and Golden Retrievers amount to about 60% of the bites and 80% of the fatalities.

[Mighty AC]

In my area, Great Danes, Beagles and Golden Retrievers amount to about 60% of the bites and 80% of the fatalities.

This slideshow ranks the 39 most dangerous dog breeds in the US factoring in bites, maimings and deaths adjusted for the breeds population. http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/10/29/dangerous-dogs.html#slide1

Let's compare Pit Bulls #1 Most Dangerous:

Registered dogs (U.S.): 2,683

Child victims: 661

Adult victims: 519

Maimings: 819

Deaths: 159

with Goldens #30 Most Dangerous

Registered dogs (U.S.): 42,962

Child victims: 7

Adult victims: 2

Maimings: 6

Deaths: 2

The article which explains where the data was obtained and how it was compiled:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/11/01/dangerous-dogs-ranked-by-breed-pit-bulls-chows-chows-lead.html

[Boges]

In my area, Great Danes, Beagles and Golden Retrievers amount to about 60% of the bites and 80% of the fatalities.

A claim like that only has any weight with citation. AC provided citation.

Remember that girl in the south who had a disfigured face from a dog bite and her scamming guardians decided to say that a KFC asked her to leave because her appearance was displeasing to other patrons.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690544/Disfigured-three-year-old-girl-KFC-hoax-controversy-gets-new-eye-fast-food-chain-donates-30k-surgeons-foundation.html

Those scars were caused by . . . wait for it. . . a Pitt Bull.

[jbg]

A claim like that only has any weight with citation. AC provided citation.

Maybe I'm wrong but those breeds sure look ferocious.

[AngusThermopyle]

A claim like that only has any weight with citation. AC provided citation.

Actually if you read the site linked to it doesn't provide much of anything worth noting. What jumped out at me, and I'm surprised no one else noticed it, is that it states registered dogs. It then goes on to state it culled media reports for the stats it uses. Do you not see a few glaring problems with this? If not then I'll explain it for you. First, the very vast majority of Pitbulls are not registered. Currently it is estimated that the North American population of Pitbulls far outnumbers any other breed of dogs. In America 1.2 million dogs are euthanized each year, of these approximately 1 million are Pitbulls. This is not changing and in fact is getting even worse with time.

The next problem is that as soon as Pitbull is mentioned the media are all over it, not so with other breeds. After all Chocolate Lab attacks is no where near as sensational as brutal crazed Pitbull attacks. Nothing gets people worked up like a Pitbull in the news.

Next comes mis-identification. Studies have shown that in a huge proportion of reported attacks the dog has been mis-identified as a Pitbull. In fact Great Dane and Old English Sheepdog crosses have been called Pitbulls by the authorities. Further to that Doctors have looked at wounds and declared they were caused by Pitbulls. Canine experts have gone on record stating that it is impossible to identify a dog by looking at bite wounds.

The CDC themselves issued a damning report on Pitbulls and dog attacks, they recently formally redacted this report stating that their methodology was flawed and the report seriously flawed as a result. Their latest study and report concluded that these dogs do not pose a significantly greater risk than any other properly raised and socialized dog.

This brings us to the next significant point, one that most people do not wish to articulate or even admit for that matter. The owners of the dogs that attack. In the majority of cases the owners are trash. White trash, Black trash, Hispanic trash, whatever, trash is trash regardless of colour. Attacks seldom if ever result from dogs owned by responsible owners. This is the reason laws are being enacted now to punish the owners, not just the dogs. In very many cases it is the owners fault they happened at all. It must be noted that if Pitbulls did not exist then these people would just use other dogs in this way, be they Dobies, or Shepards or Rotties. These guys would find the dogs they need to do what they want.

So no, AC didn't really provide much of anything useful when looked at logically. Of course if your only source is Mass Media then it is quite compelling, but when you look beyond the sensationalism and hysteria and actually learn the truth about this breed it all falls like a house of cards. Personally I'll take the word of the CDC and ASPCA over AC's website or others of that ilk. Not to mention my own experience with this breed over many years.

Anyway, we have another thread for Pitbulls, this one is for animal cruelty. Here is a link to a site that also links to a petition, I urge all of you to take a moment or two to read the information then sign the petition. It takes very little effort and will help with this issue.

http://cfhs.ca/law/federal_legislation/

Edited August 19, 2014 by AngusThermopyle

[Mighty AC]

So no, AC didn't really provide much of anything useful when looked at logically. Of course if your only source is Mass Media then it is quite compelling, but when you look beyond the sensationalism and hysteria and actually learn the truth about this breed it all falls like a house of cards. Personally I'll take the word of the CDC and ASPCA over AC's website or others of that ilk. Not to mention my own experience with this breed over many years.

Do you have different numbers to show us? I used two different sources for pit bull attacks and both ranked them well out in front. Based on the numbers I have found and the dogs I see in public, I also find it hard to believe that pit bulls outnumber every other dog breed. Year after year Labs, Germans, Goldens and Beagles crowd the top of the list by population. For several years now the Pit Bull and Chihuahua have led the cull list though. This is likely do to pitt bull bans in some states and the Taco Bell ads.

The next problem is that as soon as Pitbull is mentioned the media are all over it, not so with other breeds. After all Chocolate Lab attacks is no where near as sensational as brutal crazed Pitbull attacks. Nothing gets people worked up like a Pitbull in the news.

When pit bulls are responsible for more than two thirds of all pooch caused fatalities, it's understandable that the media covers them. Edited August 19, 2014 by Mighty AC

[AngusThermopyle]

These stereotypes about pit bulls are dead wrong. Literally.

Some 1.2 million dogs are euthanized in shelters across the country every year, according to the ASPCA. (For comparison, 1.4 million are adopted).

While it's nearly impossible to know exactly how many of the dogs we're talking about here are pit bulls, Tom Junod, in his recent Esquire cover story about pit bulls, put the best guess at 800,000 to 1 million. He, quite rightly, describes this figure as "unconscionable":

We kill anywhere from 2,000 to 3,000 pit bulls a day. They are rising simultaneously in popularity and disposability, becoming something truly American, a popular dog forever poised on the brink of extermination.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arin-greenwood/pit-bull-myths_b_5623555.html

That's one, when I have time I'll get you more. You say based on what you see, well that isn't really the best metric now is it? As I said, I don't really wish to argue the Pitbull question with you. Its obvious to me that you have made up your mind about these dogs and no amount of proof will serve to change it. The studies you provided from the Cosmetic surgery guys and Physicians have also been thoroughly debunked, as I mentioned earlier canine experts all agree that it is impossible to identify breed by bite wounds. Fortunately there is a rising backlash against media hysteria fueling ignorance regarding this breed. Many states, counties and cities that have enacted BSL are now reversing their decision and repealing these laws as they have proven to be useless. Media is also starting to show positive stories regarding them. The tide is starting to turn as it did in the past when the same hysteria was leveled against Dobies, German Shepherds and Rotties. Any one remember the James Garner movie "They Only Kill Their Masters"? The same type of hysteria and misinformation was levelled against Dobies in the sixties and seventies.

Like I said, if you wish and I have time I'll find you more sources, CDC, ASPCA etc. Reliable sources, not just some web site with flawed reasoning and an agenda to push.

As an aside. You really don't see a problem with the methodology your chosen site employs? It seems as obvious as day to me and, I would imagine, any reasoning person.

Edited August 19, 2014 by AngusThermopyle

[Mighty AC]

Its obvious to me that you have made up your mind about these dogs and no amount of proof will serve to change it.

What is it that you think you have proven? I get that Pitt Bulls and chihuahuas are being euthanized more than any other breed. That makes sense when people are getting rid of them in record numbers.

However, I don't buy that multiple sources are wrong on attack and bite statistics in a way that singles out the Pitt Bull. It seems more likely that Pitt Bulls lead those negative categories year in and year out for the same reason that "bad" dog owners seek them out, the aggressive nature they were bred for. When even the head of a Pitt Bull rescue group warns that the breed should not be around other dogs I'm fairly sure this isn't just the case of statistical error painting one breed as a monster.

You're right that this thread is about the ethics of dog breeding and not just Pitt Bulls though. I do find the creation unhealthy animals based on our desire for a specific appearance to be unethical. However, I don't see an issue in selecting for temperment. If breeders got together and only mated the most docile pitt bulls, over time the breed may improve. However, I also don't see a problem with all breeders moving on to other breeds and letting the pitt bull disappear. Not because they are aggressive and dangerous, but because like any other breed they are a man made creation, not part of a natural ecosystem. If nobody wants Pitt Bulls, Chihuahuas, Dalmatians or Labs anymore, then I'm fine with that.

[AngusThermopyle]

I don't "think" I've proven anything. I know that I've proven your site is worthless as a source. Using registered pitbulls and correlating them with all media reports to draw a conclusion that is at best misleading and in truth down right duplicitous. Next you disputed the numbers of Pitbulls, once again I've shown you were dead wrong. Did you read the Esquire piece? Didn't think so. As I've said, its useless to debate this with someone who refuses to see any point but the one to which they adhere. If you wont even try to learn why even talk about it?

I also don't see a problem with all breeders moving on to other breeds and letting the pitt bull disappear. Not because they are aggressive and dangerous, but because like any other breed they are a man made creation, not part of a natural ecosystem.

Now as to this point you make by your logic we should just do away with all dogs as they have all been bred from the original wolf strain to display the traits they do today. Personally I prefer bigger dogs although I do love all dogs the "leash lint" varieties just aren't my thing. As such I'll continue to support these breeds, however I will add a caveat. That is that not all breeds are suitable for all people, I'll also add that not all people should be allowed to own dogs.

Anyway, did any one follow the link I provided and sign the petition? This thread is about cruelty and I provided a concrete, real action that could be taken to help solve this problem. I'm willing to bet that even though it only takes a few clicks and a couple of minutes almost no one did. that alone speaks volumes. People would rather sound off than make the most minimal effort to improve things.