Purebred = Animal Abuse?

[Mighty AC]

Now as to this point you make by your logic we should just do away with all dogs as they have all been bred from the original wolf strain to display the traits they do today. Personally I prefer bigger dogs although I do love all dogs the "leash lint" varieties just aren't my thing. As such I'll continue to support these breeds, however I will add a caveat. That is that not all breeds are suitable for all people, I'll also add that not all people should be allowed to own dogs.

I don't think we have to do away with all breeds, though any breed that we have shaped to the point of health or reproductive issues should go or be altered. For instance Bulldogs can't breathe properly because we like the flat face. Boston Terriers must be delivered via C-section because their large heads can no longer fit through the birth canal. Otherwise I am fine with the existence of dogs if people want them. However, I'm also fine with a breed disappearing because they have fallen out of favour and are no longer bred. It's not like breeds are part of a natural food web and their disappearance will damage ecosystems.

[Mighty AC]

Anyway, did any one follow the link I provided and sign the petition?

Yes, thanks for the link. Our federal cruelty laws are ridiculous which has forced several provinces to strengthen theirs.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Mighty AC

[AngusThermopyle]

Very true. personally as a Canadian I find it embarrassing and rather shameful that we rank lowest in the developed world for animal cruelty laws and are equivalent to Mexico. It really doesn't say much for our society as a whole in that regard.

Our authorities tend to turn a blind eye towards these issues or even outright deny them. I've been following a situation in Alberta recently regarding suspected dog fighting on reserves around Edmonton. Dogs have been turning up horribly mauled, abandoned to die slowly in pain. The dogs show obvious signs of dog fighting but the RCMP and humane society deny any possibility of dog fighting claiming its just a case of owner neglect and owners losing the dogs after the neglect occurred. Smaller dogs, Beagles etc. have been going missing in alarming numbers, most likely to be used as bait dogs. Recently, after all these denials the authorities declared dog fighting is happening on a reserve but refuse to name it. Obviously because it is Natives doing it and organizing it the authorities are reluctant do do anything and would rather cover it up. It doesn't matter where it happens, it needs to be stopped. Not only for the sake of the animals but also because of all the negative repercussions this disgusting activity brings with it. Here's a link to a recent story about it, there have been quite a few that have come to my attention lately.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/08/19/dog-fighting-ring-feared-after-pet-rescue-takes-in-a-battered-pit-bull-from-a-reserve-south-of-edmonton

As I mentioned before this activity is taking place on more than a few reserves. There is a strong element of denial involved but it must be faced and countered. Ignoring it and the negative repercussions wont make it go away.

[jbg]

Recently, after all these denials the authorities declared dog fighting is happening on a reserve but refuse to name it. Obviously because it is Natives doing it and organizing it the authorities are reluctant do do anything and would rather cover it up. It doesn't matter where it happens, it needs to be stopped. Not only for the sake of the animals but also because of all the negative repercussions this disgusting activity brings with it. Here's a link to a recent story about it, there have been quite a few that have come to my attention lately.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/08/19/dog-fighting-ring-feared-after-pet-rescue-takes-in-a-battered-pit-bull-from-a-reserve-south-of-edmonton

As I mentioned before this activity is taking place on more than a few reserves. There is a strong element of denial involved but it must be faced and countered. Ignoring it and the negative repercussions wont make it go away.

Jack London's White Fang is admittedly a work of fiction. No one could accuse its author of being right-wing; he was a Socialist. One of the scenes from the book highlighted FN fascination with dog fighting and gambling that went with it. In that scene, an incredibly fierce dog/wolf hybrid is paired with a bulldog for a fight. The bulldog almost kills White Fang, until some gold miners see what's happening and break up the fight.

While again it's fiction, in order to be readable fiction needs to track real life fairly closely. I suspect that FN's activity in dog fighting is not new.

[AngusThermopyle]

I read White Fang when i was ten or eleven years old. I still remember my extreme distaste at that part of the book.Although there may be a long standing tradition of dog fighting among FN's it doesn't change the fact that it is a disgusting and incredibly cruel practice that must end. As with many traditions of the past, time lends a fresh perspective. Some would argue that it is a cultural type of thing and as such should be respected. In my opinion it is a practise that serves only to denigrate and debase any culture that practises it. It would be hypocrisy in the extreme to demand respect for ones culture whilst condoning such a cruel and barbaric activity. Unfortunately it also generates millions in illicit gambling, drugs, illegal guns and ties to organized crime. As such its a tough nut to crack. America is setting an example worthy of emulation with their zero tolerance policy and concerted efforts to eliminate it. Canada would do well to follow this example rather than our current course of action which is to pretend it doesn't happen. As usual in these matters we rank last in the developed western world when it comes to this issue. As I mentioned before, we are roughly comparable to Mexico regarding our animal cruelty laws, really something to be proud of. (that was sarcasm, for those who may not realize it)

[Mighty AC]

According to my a-hole CPC MP and near neighbour, the CPC opposition to strengthening animal cruelty laws was a fear of angering Alberta ranchers. Is there room to distinguish between meat producers and pet owners? Hell Yeah. Is the CPC position just a BS cop out? Of Course. Should we also improve our agricultural livestock standards? Again HELL YEAH. My science background is in enviro-bio, zoology and wildlife bio. As such I have spent too much time witnessing the torture of animals in agricultural settings.

[Bonam]

I read White Fang when i was ten or eleven years old. I still remember my extreme distaste at that part of the book.Although there may be a long standing tradition of dog fighting among FN's it doesn't change the fact that it is a disgusting and incredibly cruel practice that must end. As with many traditions of the past, time lends a fresh perspective. Some would argue that it is a cultural type of thing and as such should be respected. In my opinion it is a practise that serves only to denigrate and debase any culture that practises it. It would be hypocrisy in the extreme to demand respect for ones culture whilst condoning such a cruel and barbaric activity.

And yet cultures that treat other humans (women, homosexuals, etc) in a similarly degrading way demand and are afforded respect. Why is that? I would say that cruelty of this type to fellow humans is significantly more appalling than to animals.

Additionally, as long as we are slaughtering animals by the hundreds of millions for food, it is a bit hypocritical to suggest that other uses of animals for human pleasure are somehow immoral or unethical. There is nothing special about dogs and cats that makes them deserving of greater protection than pigs and cows. And if one was to try to measure how much the life of an animal sucks, one would be hard pressed to make the argument that the life of a fighting dog is meaningfully worse than that of a meat animal.

In the end, 99% of arguments regarding "animal cruelty" have absolutely no logical basis or self-consistency, but are based solely on emotionalism, "it's cute and furry!"

Edited August 22, 2014 by Bonam

[AngusThermopyle]

Their are so many logical fallacies and incorrect statements in your last post that I just dont have time to address them right now. Later I'll disect it for you and perhaps you'll see how ridiculous what you said actually is, though I doubt that. Really doing good in this thread aren't you, first it was parroting PETA's ridiculous assertion about pets and cruelty, now this.

[jbg]

I read White Fang when i was ten or eleven years old. I still remember my extreme distaste at that part of the book.Although there may be a long standing tradition of dog fighting among FN's it doesn't change the fact that it is a disgusting and incredibly cruel practice that must end.

I certainly don't support dog fighting. I was just pointing out that it seems to have some history.

[Wilber]

And if one was to try to measure how much the life of an animal sucks, one would be hard pressed to make the argument that the life of a fighting dog is meaningfully worse than that of a meat animal.

One could easily make that argument. If you want good meat, you treat an animal well and its death is quick and nearly painless.

Not really an issue for the animal but we also don't kill meat animals for entertainment.

[Boges]

Can it be resolved that largely Purebred Standards are animal cruelty because this thread has turned into a talk about Pitt Bulls. Who, I don't believe, have a real AKC standard.

[Bonam]

One could easily make that argument. If you want good meat, you treat an animal well and its death is quick and nearly painless.

Not really an issue for the animal but we also don't kill meat animals for entertainment.

Er, look at the farms that make most meat and then come back about that "treating well". We're not talking about the fancy free range meat for champagne sippers, but the meat that comprises the bulk of the market.

As for it not being for entertainment..

Meat eating is purely for human pleasure, not survival. Non meat products can feed many more mouths for the same resource input.

[Wilber]

Er, look at the farms that make most meat and then come back about that "treating well". We're not talking about the fancy free range meat for champagne sippers, but the meat that comprises the bulk of the market.

As for it not being for entertainment..

Meat eating is purely for human pleasure, not survival. Non meat products can feed many more mouths for the same resource input.

They are certainly not treated as pets but if you want people to buy your product you have to maintain a certain level of care, regardless of the customer.

Historically, many cultures have subsisted on fish, meat and dairy products almost exclusively. Examples: Inuit and other FN peoples, Mongols etc.

We also kill other forms of life in order to grow crops.

Sorry but I'm not about to become a vegan just yet.

[Bonam]

Neither am I. I value the pleasure of eating meat more strongly than I care about the harm it does to animals. But that is an honest evaluation.

On the other hand, some people like to be outraged by the use of animals for amusement, or for scientific research, while not thinking twice about eating meat. It is hypocritical.

[Wilber]

Neither am I. I value the pleasure of eating meat more strongly than I care about the harm it does to animals. But that is an honest evaluation.

On the other hand, some people like to be outraged by the use of animals for amusement, or for scientific research, while not thinking twice about eating meat. It is hypocritical.

I don't think you can lump them all together. All life feeds on other life, even vegetation if you discount chemical fertilizers.

To those who decry the use of animals for scientific research, it depends on the research. If it is medical research that can benefit them, offer them the opportunity to take the animals place or foreswear any benefits which come from that research. If it is just to come up with a better cosmetic, I agree with them.

You will have to clarify what you mean by amusement.

[Mighty AC]

Neither am I. I value the pleasure of eating meat more strongly than I care about the harm it does to animals. But that is an honest evaluation.

On the other hand, some people like to be outraged by the use of animals for amusement, or for scientific research, while not thinking twice about eating meat. It is hypocritical.

You're right it is hypocritical and I too am one of the hypocrites. I have lent some time and money attempting to improve the rights of animals, yet I still eat some meat. I often use the meat eating example as a way to identify with how creationists, climate change deniers and anti-vaxers must feel in debates. The evidence is one sided, it's healthier, more humane, environmentally friendly and cost effective to drop the meat but I eat it anyway.

[Bonam]

The evidence is one sided, it's healthier, more humane, environmentally friendly and cost effective to drop the meat but I eat it anyway.

Whether or not its healthier is debatable. While having a very well thought out vegetarian diet can certainly be healthier, simply dropping meat out of your diet without becoming a nutrition expert can be quite unhealthy due to lack of specific nutrients that, while abundant in meat, can only be obtained from a vegetarian diet with specific intent and knowledge. For someone that doesn't want to constantly think about what proteins, amino acids, etc, they've had that week and just wants to eat tasty meals without too much thought (i.e. the vast majority of people), being a vegetarian is potentially less healthy.

[Mighty AC]

Whether or not its healthier is debatable. While having a very well thought out vegetarian diet can certainly be healthier, simply dropping meat out of your diet without becoming a nutrition expert can be quite unhealthy due to lack of specific nutrients that, while abundant in meat, can only be obtained from a vegetarian diet with specific intent and knowledge.

Sure...that's true about any diet though. Most of the meat eating population does not eat a properly balanced diet either. Vegetarians have to be careful about consuming enough iron and protein but beyond that meeting the RDI of essential nutrients is far easier. As someone who is in a slow transition towards vegetarianism, the required nutritional knowledge is very easy to come by. The hard part is battling my cravings for a perfectly seared, medium rare rib-eye steak, seasoned with some course salt, peppercorns and a little garlic butter. drool....

Just the thought of that steak makes it easy to temporarily forget about how we torture our food animals.