Malaysian Airliner Reportedly Shot Down in east Ukraine

[GostHacked]

Exactly. The Putin plane propaganda is a way to deflect criticism and make him out to be a victim as well.

Who is doing that Shady? Name some names Shady. Come on you can do it.

[Argus]

All Russians have no sense of morality? I thought we got beyond making broad generalizations.

All peoples have their own culture and value set. Corruption and alcoholism seem to be absolutely endemic in Russia.

[Argus]

Really? Or is it your sense of superiority making that assumption?

The Russian conscript army have a well earned reputation for brutality, alcoholism, theft and incompetence. Their junior officers are corrupt and their senior officers more often than not earned their stars through loyalty to the political leadership rather than military competence or ability.

[Argus]

What did you meet all 150 million of them? The same can be said about Americans, Canadians, British etc...

You honestly think if this plane crashed in rural Canada the odds of people stealing the corpses blind is about the same as it falling to the ground in rural Russia?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Argus

[Signals.Cpl]

The same can’t be said of the Ukrainians?

No, they didn't shoot down the aircraft, all they seem to be interested in is presenting the evidence and distancing themselves from the incident.

Moral, military, intelligence and most important of all, economic support from the rest of the World is hardly nothing.

The Ukrainians are already viewed as the victims of the Russian aggression, shooting down an aircraft and making it appear as if it is a Russian or separatist action could make their case for assistance better but the outcome of someone finding out the truth would bring about their demise as suddenly they look like the bad guy and also give Russia an excuse to crush them with little to no complaints from the west.

Russia has very little to lose in this entire conflict with a weakened United States and a neutered Europe……..With this incident alone, if it became proven that Russia had nothing to do with the shoot down, would the rest of the World suddenly embrace Russia?

No it would not, but at the same time shooting down an civilian aircraft and killing 300 people who have nothing to do with the conflict ultimately means that they will face more sanctions, harsher sanctions and Ukraine may ultimately get more support from the west. What would Russia gain from shooting down an aircraft, killing all civilians on board and then having billions of dollars in aid flowing in Ukraine and modern equipment flowing in Ukraine from the west?

But of course, what would they stand to gain…….on the inverse, if the Ukrainians were the culprits and successfully shifted the blame onto the separatists, the Ukrainian labelled terrorists become an even greater pox.

How likely would that be when we consider that the west and the Russians are all looking at the conflict area? They may get support but when push comes to shove, one mistake and they go from victim to villain, material support from the west goes from possibility to never gonna happen... neither side had anything to gain from this, ultimately it seems to me that it was incompetence.

Remember, one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist……..

Yeah but in this case, a good chunk of the freedom fighters seem to be Russian military and intelligence members. Ultimately though, in this case the separatists don't seem to be trying to terrorize anyone by shooting down an airplane full of innocent people they just shot down a plane without making sure its a military plane. It seems to me that you are trying to build an elaborate story around something that could be explain by incompetence or a simple mistake.

And said claim is based on “evidence” provided by the Ukrainians…hardly a non-biased source….could said evidence be faked? Could it be transcripts from the previous downing of a Ukrainian aircraft?

The evidence was that they claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian military plane, and then subsequently upon realizing they shot down an airliner they tried to cover their tracks.

I truly wonder what the actual electronic intercept capabilities of the Ukraine actually are…..were they not funding their recent campaign through public donations?

So? Do you think we would be any better off if we were in the same political situation?

[Argus]

We want to know the absolute facts, of course it makes a difference. Why would you think otherwise?

Because either way Russia is to blame.

[Argus]

Who is Putin’s successor? Nature abhors a vacuum........Especially in Russia.

Perhaps the country will descend into civil war and leave the rest of us alone.

[Signals.Cpl]

The Russian conscript army have a well earned reputation for brutality, alcoholism, theft and incompetence. Their junior officers are corrupt and their senior officers more often than not earned their stars through loyalty to the political leadership rather than military competence or ability.

I seem to remember that the Germans had a similar opinion about the Russians as you do, didn't work out too well for them if I remember correctly...

where did you get your assessment form? Tom Clancy?

[Signals.Cpl]

You honestly think if this plane crashed in rural Canada the odds of people stealing the corpses blind is about the same as it falling to the ground in rural Russia?

Yep, considering this is 1) not Rural Russia. 2) This is essentially an active war zone 3) Where did you get that Russians were robbing the corpses bind? Are you using sources from the Ukrainians who you seem to despise along with everyone else who is not of your haughty birth?

[Signals.Cpl]

Perhaps the country will descend into civil war and leave the rest of us alone.

Yep its always a great idea to wish for a civil war in a country with enough nukes to destroy the world a few times over... pure genius I can now see your superior intellect in action.

[Argus]

I seem to remember that the Germans had a similar opinion about the Russians as you do, didn't work out too well for them if I remember correctly...

The Russians simply buried the Germans in Russian bodies. Stalin was able to form multiple million man armies of barely trained conscripts, lightly armed, some of them not armed at all (pick up a gun when the guy next to you dies) and throw them at the Germans as bullet sponges. Why do you think Russia's casualties were so much higher than anyone else's? Because Stalin didn't give a damn how many casualties he took. He knew he had more bodies available. He used this as a delaying tactic while he trained and armed other troops, with the help of the West, and through shooting generals who failed, managed to eventually get ones who knew what to do in charge.

And of course, it helped enormously that the German troops were led by an idiot corporal who wouldn't let the generals do their jobs.

where did you get your assessment form? Tom Clancy?

Actually, Clancy is very much a an admirer of Russia and always has been. His Russian characters were almost always very sympathetic and professional. My assessment comes from multiple non-fictional stories I've read over the years about the Russian military.

[Argus]

Yep, considering this is 1) not Rural Russia. 2) This is essentially an active war zone 3) Where did you get that Russians were robbing the corpses bind? Are you using sources from the Ukrainians who you seem to despise along with everyone else who is not of your haughty birth?

Birth has got nothing to do with my approval or disapproval. Behaviour is what matters to me.

[Argus]

Yep its always a great idea to wish for a civil war in a country with enough nukes to destroy the world a few times over... pure genius I can now see your superior intellect in action.

Why don't you quit whining about my unflattering opinion of Russians and get back to the actual discussion.

[Signals.Cpl]

Birth has got nothing to do with my approval or disapproval. Behaviour is what matters to me.

Sure it does...

[Derek 2.0]

No, they didn't shoot down the aircraft, all they seem to be interested in is presenting the evidence and distancing themselves from the incident.

Can you say that with 100% certainty? If yes, based on what? Evidence provided by the Ukrainians?

The Ukrainians are already viewed as the victims of the Russian aggression, shooting down an aircraft and making it appear as if it is a Russian or separatist action could make their case for assistance better but the outcome of someone finding out the truth would bring about their demise as suddenly they look like the bad guy and also give Russia an excuse to crush them with little to no complaints from the west.

So there is a potential upside for the Ukrainians………As to Russia crushing them, if the intended target were Putin himself, and they were successful, as I said prior, I doubt Russia as a State would have the wherewithal to invade the Ukraine and would likely be contending with yet another civil war.

No it would not, but at the same time shooting down an civilian aircraft and killing 300 people who have nothing to do with the conflict ultimately means that they will face more sanctions, harsher sanctions and Ukraine may ultimately get more support from the west. What would Russia gain from shooting down an aircraft, killing all civilians on board and then having billions of dollars in aid flowing in Ukraine and modern equipment flowing in Ukraine from the west?

I highly doubt Russia would have directly shot down the flight, but not for fear of sanctions from the West……When Europe as a whole rely upon Russia for ~30% of their oil and ~40% of their natural gas, an economic war is a war the Russians will win…….And of course, further strengthen Putin’s resolve internally and allowing him to continue liberating other ethnic Russian populations in Eastern Europe.

How likely would that be when we consider that the west and the Russians are all looking at the conflict area? They may get support but when push comes to shove, one mistake and they go from victim to villain, material support from the west goes from possibility to never gonna happen... neither side had anything to gain from this, ultimately it seems to me that it was incompetence.

And that is very likely, but as you yourself confirmed, there is a potential upside for the Ukrainians.

Yeah but in this case, a good chunk of the freedom fighters seem to be Russian military and intelligence members. Ultimately though, in this case the separatists don't seem to be trying to terrorize anyone by shooting down an airplane full of innocent people they just shot down a plane without making sure its a military plane. It seems to me that you are trying to build an elaborate story around something that could be explain by incompetence or a simple mistake.

Elaborate story? Would you consider an elected President being overthrown by a segment of his people, alienating the segment of his population that he drew support from, resulting in a civil war as elaborate?

The evidence was that they claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian military plane, and then subsequently upon realizing they shot down an airliner they tried to cover their tracks.

What evidence?

So? Do you think we would be any better off if we were in the same political situation?

Not at all......

[Derek 2.0]

Perhaps the country will descend into civil war and leave the rest of us alone.

If Putin were killed in such a manner, I wouldn’t discount the possibility.

[Signals.Cpl]

Why don't you quit whining about my unflattering opinion of Russians and get back to the actual discussion.

I find it hilarious that you with your arrogance cant see that maybe a civil war in Russia is not in the best interest of say anyone? I mean what could go wrong with a civil war in the nation that holds the second largest if not the largest number of WMDs? If you knew what you were talking about you might post something other than comedy.

[Signals.Cpl]

Can you say that with 100% certainty? If yes, based on what? Evidence provided by the Ukrainians?

Yes, based on evidence provided by the Ukrainians because even in their evidence they present the shooting as a mistake.

So there is a potential upside for the Ukrainians………As to Russia crushing them, if the intended target were Putin himself, and they were successful, as I said prior, I doubt Russia as a State would have the wherewithal to invade the Ukraine and would likely be contending with yet another civil war.

Yes there is a potential upside, but there is also a very, very huge negative for them to do it... Maybe Russia would collapse in to civil war but also might not, there might be an individual or a group ready and capable to take the reins in the highly unlikely event that this was in fact an assassination attempt.

I highly doubt Russia would have directly shot down the flight, but not for fear of sanctions from the West……When Europe as a whole rely upon Russia for ~30% of their oil and ~40% of their natural gas, an economic war is a war the Russians will win…….And of course, further strengthen Putin’s resolve internally and allowing him to continue liberating other ethnic Russian populations in Eastern Europe.

Again though, it could force Europe to turn to other sources... in the long run it could end up being very bad for Russia.

And that is very likely, but as you yourself confirmed, there is a potential upside for the Ukrainians.

But the disadvantages greatly outweigh the potential benefits...

Elaborate story? Would you consider an elected President being overthrown by a segment of his people, alienating the segment of his population that he drew support from, resulting in a civil war as elaborate?

What evidence?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/malaysian-airlines-mh17-reported-crashed-just-after-rebel-leader-boasted-of-shooting-down-plane-we-warned-them-not-to-fly-in-our-skies/

they shot it down and when they realized they screwed up they started trying to cover their tracks.

[Derek 2.0]

Yes, based on evidence provided by the Ukrainians because even in their evidence they present the shooting as a mistake.

Does their “evidence” also absolve themselves from any potential mistake?

Yes there is a potential upside, but there is also a very, very huge negative for them to do it... Maybe Russia would collapse in to civil war but also might not, there might be an individual or a group ready and capable to take the reins in the highly unlikely event that this was in fact an assassination attempt.

It would be either the FSB or Army…….both organizations have near centuries worth of built-in distrust.

Again though, it could force Europe to turn to other sources... in the long run it could end up being very bad for Russia.

What other sources? The Russians could stop energy shipments near instantly……it would take years for the Europeans to find these other sources……..Such a reduction in energy would devastate the European economy.

But the disadvantages greatly outweigh the potential benefits...

.....as facts obtained by Ukraine to date indicate.

they shot it down and when they realized they screwed up they started trying to cover their tracks.

So the evidence against Russia is information obtained by their adversaries and a posting on the Russian Facebook?

[Argus]

So the evidence against Russia is information obtained by their adversaries and a posting on the Russian Facebook?

And US satellites...

[Wilber]

A little perspective and foresight might be not to fly near conflict zones period.

Sure, blame the victim. They deserved to get raped, mugged etc because they were in the wrong part of town .

[Derek 2.0]

And US satellites...

....Confirmed that a surface to air missile was launched in Eastern Ukraine……..I don’t think there is any doubt of that fact.

[Derek 2.0]

And further news:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-rebels-take-custody-of-plane-crash-bodies-1.2712459

Donetsk rebel leader Alexander Borodai said the bodies recovered from the crash site would remain in four refrigerated train cars in the rebel-held town of Torez, 15 kilometres from the crash site, until the arrival of an international aviation delegation.

"The bodies will go nowhere until experts arrive," Borodai said, speaking in the rebel-held city of Donetsk.

He also said the plane's black boxes have been recovered and will be handed over to the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Borodai said he was expecting a team of 12 Malaysian experts and that he was disappointed at how long they had taken to arrive. He insisted that rebels had not interfered with the crash investigation, despite reports to the contrary by international monitors and journalists at the crash site

.

Clearly the rebel leader is lying at the behest of Comrade Puppet Master Putin…..

So I suppose the Dutch investigators will be able to determine and confirm if the savage, Vodka swilling rebels actually had their way with the bodies…….or just recovered them and put them into a climate controlled environment to prevent natural decay until they can be turned over…..

[ASIP]

3) Where did you get that Russians were robbing the corpses bind?

Did you miss a scandal when Russian soldiers who participated in clearing crash site of the Polish President plane stole debit and credit cards from dead Poles and tried to use the cards afterward? This was confirmed by Russian court.

[Argus]

....Confirmed that a surface to air missile was launched in Eastern Ukraine……..I don’t think there is any doubt of that fact.

Such satellites can pinpoint the exact location of the launch. So to suppose it was anyone other than the Russian 'separatists' or their Russian masters fighting alongside them is to assume some third party was able to drive one of these big missile launchers into their territory, perhaps because everyone was drunk, fire one, then drive away without anyone noticing. That beggars belief.