Ontario Budget 2014 -- Election

[Icebound]

. More public sector jobs are not what we need.

Oh?

That is not a given.

Private industry has a history of creating great messes and not paying for them. Eventually it got left to the public sector to clean them up.

Our airline maintenance is substandard http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/survey-finds-gaps-in-aviation-safety-procedures/article18136511/

The food industry is wallowing in inhumane practices, and faulty products

We are being inundated with foreign products, including food and drugs, of questionable safety.

Our automobiles are faulty, our rail lines are spewing burning oil into the middle of towns, our bridges are falling down, our roads are pounded to crap by trucks, our rivers are polluted by chemicals.

Maybe these industries need to pay for MORE public jobs to regulate, oversee and penalize their behaviour...

[Michael Hardner]

CBC Radio One - Metro Morning just interviewed more than a dozen people on John St. yesterday. Only one could identify which party the leaders were associated with, when the interviewer NAMED the leaders.

These people are known as "the" public.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.amazon.ca/Tragedy-Commons-Members-Parliament-Democracy/dp/0307361292

Somebody from this group was on the Metro Morning show. I will have to check it out.

[Boges]

Oh?

That is not a given.

Private industry has a history of creating great messes and not paying for them. Eventually it got left to the public sector to clean them up.

Our airline maintenance is substandard http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/survey-finds-gaps-in-aviation-safety-procedures/article18136511/

The food industry is wallowing in inhumane practices, and faulty products

We are being inundated with foreign products, including food and drugs, of questionable safety.

Our automobiles are faulty, our rail lines are spewing burning oil into the middle of towns, our bridges are falling down, our roads are pounded to crap by trucks, our rivers are polluted by chemicals.

Maybe these industries need to pay for MORE public jobs to regulate, oversee and penalize their behaviour...

So the public sector will be our savour? Where has this public sector been when the provincial spending has doubled (as well as the debt) in the past 11 years. We just need to spend more, More, MORE!!!!

BTW most of the things you mention in your post are Federal responsibilities.

[John]

Oh?

That is not a given.

Private industry has a history of creating great messes and not paying for them. Eventually it got left to the public sector to clean them up.

Our airline maintenance is substandard http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/survey-finds-gaps-in-aviation-safety-procedures/article18136511/

The food industry is wallowing in inhumane practices, and faulty products

We are being inundated with foreign products, including food and drugs, of questionable safety.

Our automobiles are faulty, our rail lines are spewing burning oil into the middle of towns, our bridges are falling down, our roads are pounded to crap by trucks, our rivers are polluted by chemicals.

Maybe these industries need to pay for MORE public jobs to regulate, oversee and penalize their behaviour...

According to the article, substandard airline maintenance is the fault of Transporation Canada regulations, not the private sector.

If you have a problem with foreign products, you shouldn't buy them. That's exactly what I do with certain products.

Faulty cars are being taken off the road via voluntary recalls by the makers.

There wouldn't be so many rail accidents involving oil if more pipelines were built.

As far as pollution goes...the Soviet Union was filled with public employees and they had some of the worst environmental disasters in history.

If there wasn't so much money mispent by government maybe some of those bridges could be rebuilt...

It's hard to see how more public jobs would solve these problems.

It seems that government IS the cause of some of these while exercising some personal choice would take care of others.

Perhaps the food processing industry is a wreck, I really don't know, but overall, as a society, more government jobs are not the answer.

[Boges]

I love how people are assigning blame in the foreign issues the feds are having with Hudak and the OPC. From what I gather the issues are more due to labour shortages out west were there's an economic boom but Canadians are unwilling to move West for a service industry job (not that I blame them) But someone will come in from another country no problem.

Shouldn't even be something brought up in debating this election.

[Topaz]

To be fair to the libs, they did go down with the rest of the world in 2008, and Ontario got hit the hardest because of manufacturing. The feds have been using that as a excuse for spending, so why can't the provinces? Grant, the gas plants were their downfall and anyone who took over for Dalton will pay for it, unless TO vote Libs. The PC should have picked a different leader, I hear more people NOT voting for PC because they don't trust and like Hudak.

[Topaz]

To be fair to the libs, they did go down with the rest of the world in 2008, and Ontario got hit the hardest because of manufacturing. The feds have been using that as a excuse for spending, so why can't the provinces? Grant, the gas plants were their downfall and anyone who took over for Dalton will pay for it, unless TO vote Libs. The PC should have picked a different leader, I hear more people NOT voting for PC because they don't trust and like Hudak.

[Boges]

And the Feds have balanced their budget while the Libs are still spending. The Federal budget is effectively balanced while Ontario is still running an $11 billion deficit.

Regarding not trusting Hudak, who would people trust? Hudak's biggest failing in 2011 was that his platform was very similar to McGuinty. In 2007 John Tory was a very centrist candidate that didn't gain traction.

Right now the only option I see for the PCs is a move to the Right which Hudak can accomplish.

[John]

And the Feds have balanced their budget while the Libs are still spending. The Federal budget is effectively balanced while Ontario is still running an $11 billion deficit.

Regarding not trusting Hudak, who would people trust? Hudak's biggest failing in 2011 was that his platform was very similar to McGuinty. In 2007 John Tory was a very centrist candidate that didn't gain traction.

Right now the only option I see for the PCs is a move to the Right which Hudak can accomplish.

That's interesting because I feel they're pretty right at the moment, but wouldn't mind them going farther.

What would you suggest they do?

[Argus]

The people who demand fiscal responsibility are inevitably the ones who "win" under the system,

You mean the ones who pay taxes? Certainly I can see how the 1/3rd who pay no taxes wouldn't care about deficits. In fact, they'd probably be fully in favour of more borrowing and running up the debt more to buy them stuff.

Which is why I think that if you pay no taxes you shouldn't be able to vote on how tax dollars are to be spent.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

CBC Radio One - Metro Morning just interviewed more than a dozen people on John St. yesterday. Only one could identify which party the leaders were associated with, when the interviewer NAMED the leaders.

These people are known as "the" public.

Which is why these people should not be allowed to vote.

[Michael Hardner]

You mean the ones who pay taxes?

Yes.

Certainly I can see how the 1/3rd who pay no taxes wouldn't care about deficits. In fact, they'd probably be fully in favour of more borrowing and running up the debt more to buy them stuff.

Which is why I think that if you pay no taxes you shouldn't be able to vote on how tax dollars are to be spent.

Well, the system favours those who do pay taxes too. Since democracy works better for them, taking power away from the others will lead you to revolution, basically.

[Michael Hardner]

Which is why these people should not be allowed to vote.

I'll bet they don't anyway. It takes me back to my idea of a 'public' that is designed for engagement.

[Topaz]

Most of the time, the top of the list is "jobs" but I think this time its hydro rates and at noon the reporter said that the rates will still be going up 45% over 5 years, which will have very much hardships for many people living in this province. The reporter also said that Hudak would bring down some costs by tearing up the contracts with the solar and wind industry. Now the problem with that could be the same as Dalton had.....tear up the contracts and get ready to pay out millions or billions of dollars in penalties for cancellations. I hope the media will ask this question of him and get his reaction to it.

[Argus]

Well, the system favours those who do pay taxes too. Since democracy works better for them, taking power away from the others will lead you to revolution, basically.

How does it work better for them? They have to pay a lot of money for services, while the others pay nothing. Seems to me the system works for the others.

[Argus]

Most of the time, the top of the list is "jobs" but I think this time its hydro rates and at noon the reporter said that the rates will still be going up 45% over 5 years, which will have very much hardships for many people living in this province. The reporter also said that Hudak would bring down some costs by tearing up the contracts with the solar and wind industry. Now the problem with that could be the same as Dalton had.....tear up the contracts and get ready to pay out millions or billions of dollars in penalties for cancellations. I hope the media will ask this question of him and get his reaction to it.

I don't know if he can tear them up. I doubt it, but at least he won't write more of them.

Look, the problems with his policy are obvious. We pay wind producers 13.5cents per kwh and solar energy producers between 44-80 cents per kwh. Our own hydro produces energy at 3.5 cents, nuclear at 5.6 cents. So the way things work, the more succesful the program is at bringing in solar and wind power, the more we'll have to pay. Ultimately, if we replaced 10% of power with solar, the costs for consumers would go up tenfold for that power, which would translate into doubling energy prices overall. And this isn't just an inconvenient cost. It affects people's standard of living, and affects the economic rationale for business, particularly manufacturing. Heavy consumers of power will find it more proftable to relocate to Quebec or the US, depending on how high the power rates go.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Argus

[Big Guy]

Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak has just stated that he will lay off 100,000 civil workers. The 10 per cent cut will affect all workers, except for nurses, doctors and police, and will bring employment back to 2009 levels.

What is going to happen to those 100,000 people?

How can eliminating 100,000 jobs create more jobs?

[Argus]

Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak has just stated that he will lay off 100,000 civil workers. The 10 per cent cut will affect all workers, except for nurses, doctors and police, and will bring employment back to 2009 levels.

What is going to happen to those 100,000 people?

How can eliminating 100,000 jobs create more jobs?

Depends on how carefully it's done. There's no question that to get back to a balanced budget they are going to have to cut down on the number of people on the payroll. They need to do something about the disastous electricity system the Liberals have set up, and they need to cut back on the kind of senseless regulation which has proliferated under the Liberals and which discourages companies from creating jobs. I don't know anyone, for example, who isn't unhappy with their new "College of Trades", which appears to be a complete waste of time and money.

[CPCFTW]

It's mostly teachers.. There are over 120k teachers in Ontario for 2mil students. That's 1 per 16.6 students. There are also over 7k principals and vice principals.. Classes will get bigger and teachers will have to work harder for the 8 months that they actually work. Boohoo.

Edited May 9, 2014 by CPCFTW

[Michael Hardner]

How does it work better for them? They have to pay a lot of money for services, while the others pay nothing. Seems to me the system works for the others.

Look at how well the wealthy have done over the past few decades, thanks to governments paying attention to these things.

[Boges]

I'm glad Hudak came out and said it early. There are WAY!!!! to many Public servants. I'll repeat, the budget is DOUBLE what it was 11 years ago when the Liberals took over. There's no way that's justifiable.

Wynne fanned the flames about service cuts. Do we really feel that our government is twice as good as it was in 2003? If you say yes. . . You're lying.

You can reduce the number of civil servants by not replacing those that retire. Ultimately though these employees have to justify their existences like everyone in the private sector does.

Also there's this.

http://www.cp24.com/news/2014-ontario-provincial-election/new-poll-gives-tories-a-six-point-lead-over-grits-1.1814985

Up to 6 points!

BUT wait you said polling is BS.

Well if they insist on doing them, I won't lie that it doesn't put a smile on my face when the party I want to win is increasing their lead. I'm sure someone who opposes the Tories would be quick to post a poll saying Wynne has taken the lead.

[Topaz]

Firing 100,000 workers is going to save taxpayers anything. First of all, if they are retiring then they are out of a job, which means EI, which I think is already in the red. If these people can't find jobs, then its welfare, unless of course, Hudak gets rid of that too, then its on to the Food Banks. Is it impossible to bring down the debt and be easy on the people? The there's the problem of a teacher teaching bigger classes and its the kids that lose there. Didn't this guy learn anything form the Harris era??

[Boges]

Great, once public sector job is created, it can't be removed.

It'd be nice if the Liberals advocated for the manufacturing jobs the province is losing like they do with public sector jobs.

[cybercoma]

It's mostly teachers.. There are over 120k teachers in Ontario for 2mil students. That's 1 per 16.6 students. There are also over 7k principals and vice principals.. Classes will get bigger and teachers will have to work harder for the 8 months that they actually work. Boohoo.

Teachers don't put in more hours when class sizes go up. The school day is only as long as the school day is. What will happen is that children will receive less attention from the teachers.

But hey, making Ontario kids stupid will only benefit the Conservatives in the long run. It's a good way to invest in the party's future.