Canada's middle class forges ahead of US - NY Times

[bjre]

It is meaningless and misleading to provide income statistics only.

The more meaningful data is how much percent left after pay for food, clothing, shelter, and GST/PST/HST and income tax and property tax.

[cybercoma]

There's the biggest disconnect. The tax cuts were and are the biggest factor in why we did so well. Consumers had more money in their pockets, employers had more breathing room on their bottom lines, it made Canada a better place to do business creating more jobs. It was the best possible policy at the time that it was most needed.

Consumers had more money in their pockets? Really? The people that spend money are the ones that got the tax cuts? They went to the people that had more than enough money to ride the recession out. Those people with their tax cuts pocketed the money and sat on it due to market uncertainties. It wasn't given to the people that are living pay check to pay check; in other words, the people that spend their money.

[Smallc]

Some previous governments were considered credible internationally, Martin wasn't even considered credible within his own party.

Martin was an excellent steward of Canada through many years. He was sunk by a scandal that wasn't his own, unfortunately.

[Smallc]

There's the biggest disconnect. The tax cuts were and are the biggest factor in why we did so well.

Most of the tax cuts we enjoy in Canada now came from the Chretien/Martin Liberals! To say anything else is to be far less than honest.

[Bryan]

Consumers had more money in their pockets? Really? The people that spend money are the ones that got the tax cuts?

Absolutely. Lower GST, lower income tax, lowered starting tax bracket, significantly more tax credits -- especially for the things that really make budgeting for families very difficult (like child care and sports).

The average working family benefitted tremendously from the CPC's tax policies.

[Smallc]

The average working family benefitted tremendously from the CPC's tax policies.

As they did from the policies of the Liberals before them.

[Bryan]

Most of the tax cuts we enjoy in Canada now came from the Chretien/Martin Liberals! To say anything else is to be far less than honest.

Martin promised a lot that he never delivered on. To say anything else is to be far less than honest.

[Bryan]

Martin was an excellent steward of Canada through many years. He was sunk by a scandal that wasn't his own, unfortunately.

Martin was a buffoon who had no idea what he was doing.

[Smallc]

Martin promised a lot that he never delivered on. To say anything else is to be far less than honest.

Who delivered most of the corporate tax cuts that businesses now enjoy? Not the Conservatives.

Who indexed the federal tax code to inflation (the largest tax cut in Canadian history)? Not the Conservatives.

Who lowered the rate of tax on the lowest federal tax bracket, a rate that Harper increased and then again decreased? Why, that was Paul Martin.

The Conservatives have done some very good things while in office, but then, so did the Liberals before them. The Conservatives have also done some very bad things though, like the boutique tax cuts that you say were so good. They do little but complicate the tax code further.

[Smallc]

Martin was a buffoon who had no idea what he was doing.

And Harper is far too vindictive to govern as well as he should be able to. The SCC issue going on right now has lost my confidence in him...again.

[eyeball]

And Harper is far too vindictive to govern as well as he should be able to. The SCC issue going on right now has lost my confidence in him...again.

You'll be back....again.

[Bryan]

You're completely full of it SmallC. The Liberals shuffled deck chairs. They made announcements that gave the appearance of doing something, yet had little positive effect. They downloaded a tremendous amount of the fiscal responsibility to the provinces who in turn raised taxes there -- there is only one taxpayer. More tax is more tax regardless of what pocket it comes from.

[Smallc]

You'll be back....again.

Of course I will....there isn't a better more credible alternative...and that's very sad.

[Smallc]

You're completely full of it SmallC. The Liberals shuffled deck chairs. They made announcements that gave the appearance of doing something, yet had little positive effect. They downloaded a tremendous amount of the fiscal responsibility to the provinces who in turn raised taxes there -- there is only one taxpayer. More tax is more tax regardless of what pocket it comes from.

As a Conservative, in a country with a Constitution (the original 1867 one) written by many conservatives, I would think you'd be happy about the Liberals downloading provincial responsibilities to the provinces.

Taxes in Canada - overall as a percentage of the economy - went down under Liberal governments of the 90s and 00s. They continued to go down under the Conservatives until about 2012, when they started to go up again. That's reality.

[Bryan]

Taxes are lower now than they were under the Liberals, period.

[Smallc]

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/total-tax-revenue-2013-1_taxrev-table-2013-1-en

Taxes increased in 2006. Otherwise, they went down from the start of this chart in 2001 until 2012.

[Smallc]

Taxes are lower now than they were under the Liberals, period.

And they've been going lower for two decades. The indexation of the federal tax rates to inflation was the largest tax increase ever given in Canadian history, unmatched before or after. It's a cumulative change that benefits everyone over time for the rest of...well...forever (provided that a government doesn't change it in the future). It amounts to hundreds of billions of dollars in savings.

[cybercoma]

Most of the tax cuts we enjoy in Canada now came from the Chretien/Martin Liberals! To say anything else is to be far less than honest.

The issue with the CPC is targeted tax breaks that they've implemented. They've added a lot of bulk to the tax code since 2006 with credits for everything from daycare for people with children to fitness credits. Every one of these credits hurts federal revenues and that's on top of cutting the GST. These were Conservative decisions. These decisions are the reason they're saying they "can't" afford social programs.

[Smallc]

The issue with the CPC is targeted tax breaks that they've implemented. They've added a lot of bulk to the tax code since 2006 with credits for everything from daycare for people with children to fitness credits. Every one of these credits hurts federal revenues and that's on top of cutting the GST. These were Conservative decisions. These decisions are the reason they're saying they "can't" afford social programs.

I don't want them to be able to afford most social programs. Those programs should, generally speaking, be provincial in nature. I have a problem, as you do, with the makeup of the tax cuts (less so with the GST cut which at least helps everyone, but far more so with the boutique tax cuts).

My issue with the Conservatives is that they've stopped spending money on core federal priorities, such as defence and the national park system, although they are, somewhat helpfully, spending a great deal of money (again) on infrastructure of national interest, something they should be doing.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Smallc

[Bryan]

The issue with the CPC is targeted tax breaks that they've implemented. They've added a lot of bulk to the tax code since 2006 with credits for everything from daycare for people with children to fitness credits. Every one of these credits hurts federal revenues and that's on top of cutting the GST. These were Conservative decisions. These decisions are the reason they're saying they "can't" afford social programs.

Federal revenues are up, and so is program spending.

[cybercoma]

Bryan, it's really difficult to have a discussion with you when you don't understand what people are talking about.

[PIK]

The only reason the Canadian middle-class looks good against the US is the US has fallen behind and Canada's middle-class hasn't fallen or gone up in wages. How many workers in Canada have gotten a increase in pay beside CEO's and MPP's MP's etc. I think its a bad thing to compare one thing against another because there a certain circumstances that's not taken into consideration.

I would say the middle class is made up with teachers police firemen and hydro workers and they are getting increases constantly.

[PIK]

I don't want them to be able to afford most social programs. Those programs should, generally speaking, be provincial in nature. I have a problem, as you do, with the makeup of the tax cuts (less so with the GST cut which at least helps everyone, but far more so with the boutique tax cuts).

My issue with the Conservatives is that they've stopped spending money on core federal priorities, such as defence and the national park system, although they are, somewhat helpfully, spending a great deal of money (again) on infrastructure of national interest, something they should be doing.

Quit wasting money on wifi for parks would be a start. Edited May 3, 2014 by PIK

[Bryan]

Bryan, it's really difficult to have a discussion with you when you don't understand what people are talking about.

You keep posting things that are patently false. I have no problem discussing anything with you, if you stick to things that are real instead of how you wish they were.

[Smallc]

Quit wasting money on wifi for parks would be a start.