Dis-United Kingdom? (Scotland, Not Quebec this Time)

[jbg]

Should we support or oppose such separatist movements in other democracies? In many respects, the majority English-speaking population in Canada would do better without Quebec. So would England without chronically depressed Scotland. Currently, the Scottish separatist leader, Alex Salmond is visiting the United States. The conservative New York Sun is supporting separation. Excerpts below, link.

The visit to America of the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, certainly put the crisis in Britain in a lively light — and none too soon. We caught two interviews, one with Joe Scarborough on MSNBC and another with Gerard Baker of the Wall Street Journal. They gave a glimpse of what a brilliant gadfly is Mr. Salmond. He heads the Scottish National Party, leading advocate of independence. The question will go to Scottish voters in a referendum in September, and while the Nationalists are in the minority at the moment, the polls, Mr. Salmond insists, are moving in his direction.

America ought to be all over this. It’s not just that it involves the possible breakup of the United Kingdom, which was established in 1707 with the union of England and Scotland. It’s also that the Scottish referendum could be followed as soon as next year by a separate plebiscite on whether Britain will exit the European Union. The Sun favors a yes vote on both Scottish independence and the Brixit, as the British exit is known. This and a Republican accession in the 2016 election here in America could clear the way for a broad assertion of the values of classical liberalism.

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What better partners than England and Canada for the kind of resurgent America that could emerge from the elections of 2014 and 2016? Yet not a single candidate on the Republican side seems to be focusing on this issue. We comprehend that there are those who warn that America is not an attractive partner for principled conservatives, at least not at a time when it is being represented by a president as left-leaning as Mr. Obama. This is a moment, though, to take the long view. It never made sense for Britain to throw in with Europe to the degree that it has. Far better for all for Britain and America to work on their special relationship and widen it with those others who share their common idea of liberty

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I have mixed feelings.

I have problems with the U.S., or any significant political force within it, trying to dismember an ally such as Britain or Canada. Even though the U.S. and Britain were not strong allies in 1861, Britain studiously avoided trying to assist the Confederacy.

That being said, to this "alliance" the Sun proposed, I would add add Australia, New Zealand and Israel to the list of liberty-based countries. I think this is overall a winning idea. In many respects "freedom speaks English."

Many countries in Continental Europe, Asia, Latin America and even Africa have adopted the forms of democracy. Those forms remain in most respects "top down." These societies got their start as absolute monarchies or colonies of them.

People instinctively look to the paternalistic state for guidance, succor and direction. When the English nobles forced the Magna Carta on the king, the system starting evolving into a bottom-up one based upon consent of the governed. The U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain and Israel are about the only countries in the world I can think of (maybe there are one or two more) that fit this description. Things didn't end well for the last leaders that tried to buck this system, those being Charles, Cromwell, Whitlam (an incipient Australian dictator) and Nixon.

Time for those countries, maybe ex-Scotland, to form a true alliance of countries with real commonalities. Other alliances are "elephants by committee."

[Wilber]

I posted this on another thread but it seems Scotland itself isn't indivisible. The Shetland and Orkney Islands seem to want no part of and independant Scotland and are threatening to go their own way or stay in the UK if Scotland separates. Most of the Scotland's North Sea oil reserves would be in their territorial waters.

[jbg]

I posted this on another thread but it seems Scotland itself isn't indivisible. The Shetland and Orkney Islands seem to want no part of and independant Scotland and are threatening to go their own way or stay in the UK if Scotland separates. Most of the Scotland's North Sea oil reserves would be in their territorial waters.

What thread and I'll ask that they be merged.

The Shetland and Ornkeys would have most of the oil reserves?

[Wilber]

It was on a Quebec thread. I think a lot of "Scotish" oil would be dependant on their claim to those islands who's inhabitants are largely Norse decent.

[jbg]

It was on a Quebec thread. I think a lot of "Scotish" oil would be dependant on their claim to those islands who's inhabitants are largely Norse decent.

So this is actually the first recent Scotland thread?

[-TSS-]

If there can be an independent Ireland there's no reason why there couldn't be an independent Scotland and I'd love to see an independent Scotland but most likely when the referendum comes people will opt the devil they know. The current arrangement of devolution allows the Scots to keep the cake and eat the cake.

[jbg]

If there can be an independent Ireland there's no reason why there couldn't be an independent Scotland and I'd love to see an independent Scotland but most likely when the referendum comes people will opt the devil they know. The current arrangement of devolution allows the Scots to keep the cake and eat the cake.

For England an independent Scotland would be great. A lot like ridding a millstone such as Quebec.

[-TSS-]

Surely nobody in Scotland expects that if you vote for independence today the country will be independent tomorrow but if Scotland votes yes it can take years before independence becomes reality. Everything needs to be negotiated in the split.

[Wilber]

So this is actually the first recent Scotland thread?

Far as I know.

[Boges]

The biggest revelation about Scotland potentially leaving the UK is that the Union Jack wouldn't need to have blue in it anymore. CRAZY!

Does the UK have a Clarity Act?

Edited April 14, 2014 by Boges

[-TSS-]

It's a bit unclear to me can a country use another country's currency even against the will of that other country. AFAIK Panama uses the USD and countries such as Kosovo and Macedonia use the euro. Scotland may stick to the pound even if they go independent. Actually, what alternative is there? Adopt the euro even though an independent Scotland isn't automatically a EU-member. Create their own currency? Don't make me laugh!

[iolo]

They might actually represent us, the only British, on the bloody thing, but they hate 'Welsh' people, and if Scotland goes we are not likely to stay long.

Edited April 15, 2014 by iolo

[jbg]

It's a bit unclear to me can a country use another country's currency even against the will of that other country. AFAIK Panama uses the USD

As does most of Latin America. And many countries price large transactions in the dollar or Euro.

[Scotty]

If there can be an independent Ireland there's no reason why there couldn't be an independent Scotland and I'd love to see an independent Scotland but most likely when the referendum comes people will opt the devil they know.

Why would you love to see an independent Scotland?

Personally, while I would like to see Scotland independent in theory, I don't think much of the idea in reality. Scotland hasn't had a leader worthy of the name in decades. Its politicians tend to be precious, sensitive, wimpy and lack anything resembling male genitalia. I think it's actually a requirement amongst Scottish political parties that all men be castrated before running for office. The toughest members of the Scottish parliament are women. But they tend to be the shrill, loud type like Elizabeth May, without much in the way of vision.

It's an oddity of Scotland that violence is still much admired amongst the young, especially young men, but the political class tends towards dainty, delicate, and gets teary and trembly at loud noises.

If Scotland were to ever separate it would be a relief to the Italians and Greeks. They could finally say there were worse governments in Europe.

[jbg]

If Scotland were to ever separate it would be a relief to the Italians and Greeks. They could finally say there were worse governments in Europe.

You left out Russia and Ukraine. And Hungary's ain't so great.

[iolo]

I'd have thought that the UK government, with its near-Nazi war on the poor and sick would be as nasty a great smelly turd as Europe offers.

[-TSS-]

I'd have thought that the UK government, with its near-Nazi war on the poor and sick would be as nasty a great smelly turd as Europe offers.

???

[jbg]

I'd have thought that the UK government, with its near-Nazi war on the poor and sick would be as nasty a great smelly turd as Europe offers.

Where are the gas chambers? Does the UK turn human remains into lampshades or soap?

As a Jew I find your post highly offensive.

[iolo]

Which countries are currently doing that? Stop your silly posturing and stick to the issue.

[cybercoma]

Which countries are currently doing that? Stop your silly posturing and stick to the issue.

I think calling the UK government "near Nazi-like" is about as posturing as you can get. JBG was rightfully pointing out that your hyperbole isn't helpful to your argument, which I may agree with.

[guyser]

As a Jew I find your post highly offensive.

If you were a Malay what would be your opinion. You know, since its quite alright for you to show preudice to all of them, but woah, careful on anyone else .....right?

[Wilber]

If you were a Malay what would be your opinion. You know, since its quite alright for you to show preudice to all of them, but woah, careful on anyone else .....right?

What did the Nazi's do to the Malays?

[guyser]

What did the Nazi's do to the Malays?

Nothing.

But moments before , jbg had posted ...

The majority in that country has no work ethic.

The pilot may have been happy to see this happen even at cost to his own life.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Guyser2

[iolo]

Nazis attacked working people on behalf of the capitalists, as you know. All the rest was to get support from clowns.

[iolo]

Read the Mail on 'scroungers'. The Nazis didn't dare get to serious work before they were into a World War either, as you know. Capitalist hate is serious, because it is about money and power, and those scumbags don't care who they kill to keep those things.