Can Detroitisation reach Canada too?

WestCoastRunner · March 31, 2014

Don't get angry at me...I didn't start this thread or comparison to the Motor City. But it most certainly could happen, in a Canadian way.

Why do you think I'm angry? I would certainly not waste any such emotion on you and your responses. It will not happen in London, Ontario as that is your canadian target.

guyser · March 31, 2014

Why do you think I'm angry?

Hes just trolling you.

It will not happen in London, Ontario as that is your canadian target.

Not it wont since London is diversified and a monied town.

In all liklihood there wont be a Detroit in Canada...ever because we do things differently up here and have that trainwreck to learn from. Other American cities shouldnt be like detroit but are. Not our concern really.

Decades of lousy management, riots, flight of middle class (white flight as its called) defined pensions and no law forced to fund it.....lots of reasons.

Theres a reason Canada doesnt have any ghettos on par with any American cities.

But no, there wont be a city in Canada like Detroit. Enter at your own risk.

WestCoastRunner · March 31, 2014

For once I actually think BC wasn't trolling me. But his arguments have no substance.

WestCoastRunner · March 31, 2014

And I appreciate BC's responses. I am not American and I know not very much about Detroit but I do know about Canada. But I don't think BC should pretend to know a lot about cities in Canada, especially London, Ontario.

Spiderfish · March 31, 2014

I think they will do just fine.

London, Ontario will be just fine.

London is a Canadian city. It won't happen.

Are you trying to convince BC, or yourself?

I don't think you can speak with the expertise that you convey coming from an American.

And what about Canadians who aren't from that region, are they qualified to discuss the topic? I am Canadian, I think he makes a relevant point.

WestCoastRunner · March 31, 2014

I am from that region. I was born and grew up in that region. Obviously you didn't follow the thread.

Spiderfish · April 1, 2014

Obviously you didn't follow the thread.

Feel better now that you've gotten that off your chest? Maybe now you can start engaging in the discussion instead of the people, the victim thing is getting old.

bush_cheney2004 · April 1, 2014

This idea is not new....Calgary could also be a contender:

Some fear that Detroit's financial situation, which is the largest public bankruptcy in U.S. history, may be replicated in Calgary as the cities share similarities including reliance on a few key major industries and heavy investment in infrastructure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/12/10/calgary-detroit-bankruptcy_n_4421178.html

And it did happen in Canada before, but not on Detroit's scale:

During the Great Depression, at least five British Columbia municipalities went bankrupt. Burnaby, Merritt, Prince Rupert, plus the city and district of North Vancouver fell into a state of budget disrepair in the early 1930s.

The communities saw falling property tax revenue as fewer residents were able to pay. At the time, municipalities were also responsible for unemployment relief, taxing dwindling resources.

The disastrous failure took decades to rectify. It also became a lesson for municipalities and provinces.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/21/detroit-bankruptcy_n_3630714.html

Edited April 1, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

WestCoastRunner · April 1, 2014

Feel better now that you've gotten that off your chest? Maybe now you can start engaging in the discussion instead of the people, the victim thing is getting old.

Huh, You jumped in this thread well down the road. Perhaps you can engage in the discussion. Screw off.

WestCoastRunner · April 1, 2014

This idea is not new....Calgary could also be a contender:

Some fear that Detroit's financial situation, which is the largest public bankruptcy in U.S. history, may be replicated in Calgary as the cities share similarities including reliance on a few key major industries and heavy investment in infrastructure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/12/10/calgary-detroit-bankruptcy_n_4421178.html

And it did happen in Canada before, but not on Detroit's scale:

During the Great Depression, at least five British Columbia municipalities went bankrupt. Burnaby, Merritt, Prince Rupert, plus the city and district of North Vancouver fell into a state of budget disrepair in the early 1930s.

The communities saw falling property tax revenue as fewer residents were able to pay. At the time, municipalities were also responsible for unemployment relief, taxing dwindling resources.

The disastrous failure took decades to rectify. It also became a lesson for municipalities and provinces.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/21/detroit-bankruptcy_n_3630714.html

I agree that the idea is certainly not new. But you are going back to the 30's. Take a look at the lower mainland now in BC. You just cannot compare 2014 to the 30s. It is a stretch.

Spiderfish · April 1, 2014

And it did happen in Canada before, but not on Detroit's scale:

It could be argued that Winnipeg is currently going through this now. It used to be a major hub with it's central location being ideal for corporate head offices and was strong and vibrant industrially and commercially. With the steady increase in business and corporate taxes in Manitoba and other provinces to the West offering much more appealing business environment, it didn't take large companies long to catch on that the grass truly was greener on the other side. Winnipeg now has a very healthy and thriving civil service, but the business and corporate environment is basically stagnant.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Spiderfish

WestCoastRunner · April 1, 2014

Winnipeg now has an NHL team again! That is a good sign. NHL teams would not survive without Head Office presence in any city. I am glad that Winnipeg is on the rebound. I have been to Winnipeg on weekend conferences and I find the city very welcoming but a bit trepidatious for a woman! But on the whole, a wonderful city with great architecture!

bush_cheney2004 · April 1, 2014

... Winnipeg now has a very healthy and thriving civil service, but the business and corporate environment is basically stagnant.

...and we know that unsustainable wages and benefits for civil service workers helped to hasten Detroit's demise. The shrinking tax base could no longer support current and retired city employees. Any city that gets upside down like that is at risk.

WestCoastRunner · April 1, 2014

...and we know that unsustainable wages and benefits for civil service workers helped to hasten Detroit's demise. The shrinking tax base could no longer support current and retired city employees. Any city that gets upside down like that is at risk.

As I have said above, an NHL team would not survive in a city without corporate HO support. I am quite sure that Winnipeg would not have welcomed back the Winnipeg Jets without corporate sponsorship.

bush_cheney2004 · April 1, 2014

I agree that the idea is certainly not new. But you are going back to the 30's. Take a look at the lower mainland now in BC. You just cannot compare 2014 to the 30s. It is a stretch.

So what ? This "no...no...no...it...could...never...happen...in...Canada" myth is just that. It did happen...and it can happen again.

It is not a "stretch".

bush_cheney2004 · April 1, 2014

As I have said above, an NHL team would not survive in a city without corporate HO support. I am quite sure that Winnipeg would not have welcomed back the Winnipeg Jets without corporate sponsorship.

Maybe it's just me, but don't the Detroit Red Wings come to mind. Just sayin'.....

Edited April 1, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

WestCoastRunner · April 1, 2014

It's a stretch when you are talking at least 80 years! Give it a break.

Spiderfish · April 1, 2014

Huh, You jumped in this thread well down the road. Perhaps you can engage in the discussion. Screw off.

I apologize if my comment came off brash, I know the regard to which you hold condescending tone. I am sure you have little tolerance for hypocrisy as well.

I really hate this phrase. It is condescending and insulting. Do you honestly think that people following a thread are not intelligent enough to keep up. Choose your words carefully.

WestCoastRunner · April 1, 2014

Maybe it's just me, but don't the Detroit Red Wings come to mind. Just sayin'.....

All I'm saying, is that Winnipeg would not have welcomed back the Jets without corporate sponsorship. I have no clue about Detroit.

Spiderfish · April 1, 2014

It's a stretch when you are talking at least 80 years! Give it a break.

Canada is set up differently than the US, provinces support each other through various means such as equalization programs. When the overall economy of the country is strong, it benefits all regions of Canada. I don't think we would see a great deal of decline or attrition of any major centers with the economy of the country in generally good health. If the economic health of the country was to decline however, I think this scenario could change.

bush_cheney2004 · April 1, 2014

Entire Canadian provinces have had some brushes with defaulting on outstanding obligations, most notably Saskatchewan:

Saskatchewan’s initial position was even more perilous. When elected in 1991, New Democratic Party Premier Roy Romanow took over a province that was close to defaulting on its $6 billion debt. At 28 per cent of GDP in 1991–92, the debt had climbed by more than 10 percentage points in only one year from 17.4 per cent in 1990–91. Saskatchewan’s plight was so serious that “the federal government had to step in with emergency financial assistance and contingency plans were drawn up in the event the province found itself in a position where it could not raise money in the foreign bond markets.”

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/reformcommission/chapters/ch2.html

Accountability Now · April 1, 2014

When you want to look at the future of many, if even not most, European capital cities, just look at Detroit. I'm sure that not even the most ardent multikulti-lovers can say that Detroit is a success-story. They have to invent other excuses for its sorry state.

Is there any possibility that any Canadian city turns into one like Detroit?

My company dealt with the city of Detroit not too long ago and from that experience I know that the city run facilities were plagued with union contracts that caused higher than normal costs to be combined limited productivity. It was horrible. They had equipment that was perfectly fine but needed just a minor repair and instead of making those fixes they brought in third party contractors with their own equipment. The people I dealt with just threw their hands up as they said that's the way the union did it. I think the State got involved with that Right to Work legislation and started cleaning some of that BS up.

The story above is purely anecdotal however I have heard the true reason for Detroit's demise is the rapidly declining population. It used to be around 2M but now is around 700,000. It would be tough for the city to manage and plan when the population drops that rapidly. Obviously a large portion of the people leaving were due to the manufacturing collapse but I have always wondered if it had anything to do with the internal taxation. If you live in Detroit and work in Detroit, you pay a 3% city income tax. However if you work in Detroit but live outside of Detroit you only pay 1.5%. So what is the advantange of living in Detroit? Maybe the other surrounding cities have the same tax rules....I don't know but the reality is that Detroit Metro is like 4M....so there is obviously a lot of people making the choice to live somewhere OTHER than Detroit.