Russia Out - G8 is now G7

[WWWTT]

Here's another link on the subject.

Wonder if there's any G7 backing on this one?

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVje6JzJT8VoAVOQXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=1/RE=1395882299/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.channel4.com%2fnews%2fukraine-catherine-ashton-phone-shoot-maidan-bugged-leaked/RS=%5EADA7i7JIaJRTAu1s0IYigYpx3Uir54-

WWWTT

[Big Guy]

As I stated in my original post, is the world any safer once Russia has been tossed out of the G8?

I like to be pragmatic when trying to analyze and comment on issues. The situation as it stands to-day is that Crimea is now part of Russia – period. Whether it should be or should not be or done illegally or immorally or whatever no longer matters. Nobody thinks that there is anything the West can do to make Putin change his mind and give Crimea to Ukraine. Period.

The concern now appears to be that Putin “may” decide to annex other areas that have a substantial number of people who speak Russian and would like to join Russia. If the pretext that was "illegitimately" used by Putin to annex Crimea was an "inaccurate" referendum then why not use a "legitimate" referendum which would be "accurate" to protect other areas?

Why not organize referendums in the rest of the Ukraine, Moldavia, the Baltic states and any other area which the West believes to be in danger of being annexed by Putin? That way you control the wording of the question and guarantee an outcome that the West wants.

Or would you? Is there a danger that maybe other parts of the old Soviet Union would want back into a Russian speaking and Moscow dominated association?

Putin is doing what he thinks is best for Russia. If you can believe the polls coming out of Russia, Putins popularity in Russia is soaring and currently much higher than Harpers in Canada or Obamas in the USA. How can we accurately gauge the wants of those areas where Russian is the predominant language?

I believe this phony “posturing” of sanctions and removal from the G8 is ineffectual. Trying to elbow Russia out of the G8 may push Russia closer to India, China and the other members of BRICS. That would not be a good thing for the West.

[TimG]

I like to be pragmatic when trying to analyze and comment on issues.

I think pragmatism is required here too but also a knowledge of game theory. For this reason it is very important that Russia be given a message that they have pissed off the West and if they pushes further that the West will be forced to resort to more drastic actions. The best way to demonstrate annoyance is with small but calculated retributions.

I believe this phony “posturing” of sanctions and removal from the G8 is ineffectual. Trying to elbow Russia out of the G8 may push Russia closer to India, China and the other members of BRICS. That would not be a good thing for the West.

Pushing Russia out of the G8 is not "phoney" posturing but part of the small but concrete measures necessary to show the displeasure of the West. The intent is make Putin think twice before pulling the same stunt again i.e. If Putin cannot be sure the West would not respond even more forcefully to a second incident then he may not want to risk it. If the West did nothing then that would be a sign to Putin that he could try again and face no blow back.

We don't want a repeat of the capitulation over the Sudetenland that was shortly followed by WW2. We know that ended in tears. We also don't want to start a war over Ukraine. We need a middle ground.

Aside: the BRICs are a random collection of countries with no unifying purpose. China supports Russia here because it wants a free license to annex the territory of its neighbors. India, OTOH, is more interesting in allying itself with the democracies that face military threats from China. Brazil has a struggling economy that has a long way to go before it is a major player. IOW - the BRICs are not a serious concern.

Edited March 26, 2014 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

I feel that one can oppose large powers or superpowers when they trespass on international law or convention by acting in their own interests, but in the end you do have to be pragmatic about such things. I don't see the utility of exhibiting fake outrage in such cases.

Also, there will always be political speculation about how much the perceived strength of the US president impacts the situation.

Thanks to TimG, Shady, Wilber, Big Guy and others on this thread for submitting a good number of facts for me to consider.

[Boges]

In Soviet Russia, International Globalization Groups reject YOU!

[WWWTT]

I think pragmatism is required here too but also a knowledge of game theory. For this reason it is very important that Russia be given a message that they have pissed off the West and if they pushes further that the West will be forced to resort to more drastic actions. The best way to demonstrate annoyance is with small but calculated retributions.

Pushing Russia out of the G8 is not "phoney" posturing but part of the small but concrete measures necessary to show the displeasure of the West. The intent is make Putin think twice before pulling the same stunt again i.e. If Putin cannot be sure the West would not respond even more forcefully to a second incident then he may not want to risk it. If the West did nothing then that would be a sign to Putin that he could try again and face no blow back.

We don't want a repeat of the capitulation over the Sudetenland that was shortly followed by WW2. We know that ended in tears. We also don't want to start a war over Ukraine. We need a middle ground.

Aside: the BRICs are a random collection of countries with no unifying purpose. China supports Russia here because it wants a free license to annex the territory of its neighbors. India, OTOH, is more interesting in allying itself with the democracies that face military threats from China. Brazil has a struggling economy that has a long way to go before it is a major player. IOW - the BRICs are not a serious concern.

Please provide the link about Brazil's economy.

Other than the few diplomatic restrictions placed between Russia and the west, the sanctions are helping Putin reign in the elite class in Russia that Putin is trying to bring into line to help in resurrecting the Russian economy!

I already provided the link explaining this.

As well, the G7 is a 25-30 year out of date group!

It used to be the top 7 economies in the world, nowhere near that now is it?

In the next few years when China displaces the US as the no.1 economy (2015?) every single G7 member position originally held will be displaced!

Russia has more proximity relation with India/China/Vietnam/Indonesia so I can't see the G7 in any position to have effect (possibly Japan?)

WWWTT

[Michael Hardner]

It used to be the top 7 economies in the world, nowhere near that now is it?

In the next few years when China displaces the US as the no.1 economy (2015?) every single G7 member position originally held will be displaced!

Not really that different from today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

5 out of the top 7 are G7, with Italy at #9 and Canada at #11.

[WWWTT]

Get back to us when you have a credible source.

Thou ask, so thou shall receive!

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_25/Ukraines-Tymoshenko-threatens-not-to-leave-from-Russia-even-scorched-earth-5618/

You're going to have to start backing up your claims buddy!

Until then all it is, is "unsubstantiated opinion"!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Not really that different from today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

5 out of the top 7 are G7, with Italy at #9 and Canada at #11.

Old info

BG posted this up to date link.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

Only 3 of the original 7 are still in top 7, and only the US still has original position. But that will change in next couple years or possibly by end of 2015!

I expect that in 10 years, only the US and Japan will be left in the original G7. And according to population, Japan may even drop out!

Lots of people don't want to accept the fact that the world is changing, still wanting to hold on to the old days.

WWWTT

[Rue]

WW your continued attempt to use anti-Semitism and Jews as pawns to score points for the invasion of Ukraine is a crock.

Jewish Ukrainians stood side by side non Jewish Ukrainians in support of the democratic uprising against their corrupt regime that was a puppet of Russia.

Your attempt to infer the Ukrainian government is not democratic is hilarious considering you support the Putin regime. Its also absurd trying to portray it as anti-Semitic because certain right wing extremists in the Ukraine are. The two are not the same and your attempt to suggest they are is b.s.

You might want to look at how many Jews Putin rounded up and arrested for being in opposition parties in Russia. You might also want to look at the anti-Semitic Stalnists who support him before you portray him or Russia as fighting evil anti-semites.

This current confict has nothing to do with Jews. I also find it repulsive you think you can throw out Jews as a pawn to discuss this debate.

As for people not wanting to understand he "olden" days are no longer with us you might want to take that in consideration WW when you keep throwing Jews out in political conflicts that have nothing to do with them. Its one of the most ancient of political tactics.

You might also want to give that some more thought as well You criticize anti-Russians for that mentality but are selective to the point of absurdity as Putin tries to resurrect the Soviet Empire as its latest warrior Czar.

WW nothing changes in history except the names of the people, the targets of their hatred and the alliances they form for their power.

There is no old or new-its the same regurgitated story over and over.

Your really want to portray Putin as some modern cutting edge trend? Give it a rest. He's nothing but a recycled KGB Stalinist.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Rue

[TimG]

BG posted this up to date link.

PPP estimates are of limited use and are definately not useful for gauging relevance to international relations.

From your link:

PPP estimates for some countries are based on a small and sometimes different set of goods and services. In addition, many countries do not formally participate in the World Bank's PPP project that calculates these measures, so the resulting GDP estimates for these countries may lack precision. For many developing countries, PPP-based GDP measures are multiples of the official exchange rate (OER) measure. The differences between the OER- and PPP-denominated GDP values for most of the wealthy industrialized countries are generally much smaller.

If you are making statements about the relevance of the G7 the absolute GDP is the number that matters. Edited March 26, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

WW your continued attempt to use anti-Semitism and Jews as pawns to score points for the invasion of Ukraine is a crock.

Jewish Ukrainians stood side by side non Jewish Ukrainians in support of the democratic uprising against their corrupt regime that was a puppet of Russia.

Provide the link that backs this.

Also do you have a link that supports the Jewish community supporting the un democratic Nazi government of the Ukraine?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

PPP estimates are of limited use and are definately not useful for gauging relevance to international relations.

From your link:

If you are making statements about the relevance of the G7 the absolute GDP is the number that matters.

Once again, you seem to think that your unsubstantiated opinion has more value than just that!

This was taken from the link that BG provided:

A nation's GDP at purchasing power parity (PPP) exchange rates is the sum value of all goods and services produced in the country valued at prices prevailing in the United States in the year noted. This is the measure most economists prefer when looking at per-capita welfare and when comparing living conditions or use of resources across countries

Please start trying to back up your opinion with something of a little more substance other than your biased (until proven otherwise) opinion!

WWWTT

[Big Guy]

According to some of the business community, the Russian have been “timed out” not “thrown out”. I had expected a large negative reaction but the world markets did not tank. The explanation given by economists and market analysts for this “mild” reaction was that these recent sanctions were not as stringent as expected and fall far short of trade sanctions.

“There’s a lot of talk, but they haven’t put crippling sanctions on Russia by any stretch,” said Colin Cieszynski, analyst at CMC Markets in Toronto.

There have been warnings. Transportation giant Bombardier Inc. confirmed last week that these sanctions are delaying a joint venture plan worth $3.4 billion to build Q400 turboprops in Russia.

From to-days Toronto Star;

“We have communicated to the Government of Canada our desire to see a balanced approach to resolving this situation in a way that considers Canadian interests in Russia,” a spokesperson for Kinross Gold Corp., the largest foreign gold miner operating in Russia, said in a statement.

“A number of major Canadian companies have investments in Russia, and these companies have thousands of Canadian employees and shareholders — including pensioners — who deserve a measured and thoughtful response from government on this issue.”

I think we should be very, very careful on this one.

[TimG]

This is the measure most economists prefer when looking at per-capita welfare and when comparing living conditions or use of resources across countries.

Except we are not talking about about living conditions. We are talking about international influence. For this question the absolute GDP is what matters.

[WWWTT]

According to some of the business community, the Russian have been “timed out” not “thrown out”. I had expected a large negative reaction but the world markets did not tank. The explanation given by economists and market analysts for this “mild” reaction was that these recent sanctions were not as stringent as expected and fall far short of trade sanctions.

“There’s a lot of talk, but they haven’t put crippling sanctions on Russia by any stretch,” said Colin Cieszynski, analyst at CMC Markets in Toronto.

There have been warnings. Transportation giant Bombardier Inc. confirmed last week that these sanctions are delaying a joint venture plan worth $3.4 billion to build Q400 turboprops in Russia.

This backs up my substantiated claim that the traditional G7 countries are only interested in helping Putin while trying to score political points at home (smoke and mirrors) !

It must be hard for Harper to watch his support receding while Putin's surge!

I'm sure western leaders want in on the popularity action, and this provides an opportunity for that.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Except we are not talking about about living conditions. We are talking about international influence. For this question the absolute GDP is what matters.

You forgot to read "use of resources across countries"

Either way, the trend is clearly there, it's only a matter of several years and the global market will be very different.

WWWTT

[ASIP]

From my understanding Crimea had a democratic vote.

Your understanding has nothing to do to the real world.

Results of this so-called referendum were fabricated. The technology of rigging has been mastered at previous Russian "elections."

Only about 35% of Crimean population took part in voting.

http://zn.ua/POLITICS/dzhemilev-v-krymskom-referendume-uchastvovalo-vsego-34-krymchan-141908_.html

This was confirmed by a couple of other independent sources.

[ASIP]

Just saw on CCTV 4 that a past president from the Ukraine wants to kill the 8 million Russians living in the Ukraine and invade Russia and kill Putin!

This is who

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVvazIDJT4CcAtXMXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=1/RE=1395880499/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fYulia_Tymoshenko/RS=%5EADAzaoK5Wzw2TWPWOYnbaOr7I09jKI-

It was a recording of her with another man where she made the comments. CCTV played it, but censored her potty mouth!

I have not found the link yet to back this up but will post when it becomes available!

Starting to look more and more that Russia is legit!

WWWTT

Do you realize that you are spreading dirty lies here?

This Russian propaganda was dismissed immediately by both people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/03/140324_tymoshenko_shufrych_leaked_tape.shtml

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/tymoshenko-denies-wipe-out-russians-comment-201432513315433906.html

[ASIP]

Here's another link on the subject.

Wonder if there's any G7 backing on this one?

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVje6JzJT8VoAVOQXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=1/RE=1395882299/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.channel4.com%2fnews%2fukraine-catherine-ashton-phone-shoot-maidan-bugged-leaked/RS=%5EADA7i7JIaJRTAu1s0IYigYpx3Uir54-

WWWTT

It's ridiculous! Your link contains a collection of Russian propaganda "gems" that has been a laughing stock in Russian-speaking internet for some time.

[ASIP]

Provide the link that backs this.

Also do you have a link that supports the Jewish community supporting the un democratic Nazi government of the Ukraine?

WWWTT

Ha-ha! You do really have no idea what is going on in Ukraine. Jewish people are integral part of the current revolution in Ukraine. There is no Nazi government in Ukraine. For your very limited knowledge, the Ukrainian parliament was democratically elected several years ago. It is the same parliament now.

The best ridicule of distorted "understanding" like yours is the newest Ukrainian word "zhidobanderevets". If you cannot tell it, your claims about modern Ukraine are worth nothing.

[WWWTT]

Your understanding has nothing to do to the real world.

Results of this so-called referendum were fabricated. The technology of rigging has been mastered at previous Russian "elections."

Only about 35% of Crimean population took part in voting.

http://zn.ua/POLITICS/dzhemilev-v-krymskom-referendume-uchastvovalo-vsego-34-krymchan-141908_.html

This was confirmed by a couple of other independent sources.

Please provide English version.

Is this Russian or Ukrainian?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Ha-ha! You do really have no idea what is going on in Ukraine. Jewish people are integral part of the current revolution in Ukraine. There is no Nazi government in Ukraine. For your very limited knowledge, the Ukrainian parliament was democratically elected several years ago. It is the same parliament now.

The best ridicule of distorted "understanding" like yours is the newest Ukrainian word "zhidobanderevets". If you cannot tell it, your claims about modern Ukraine are worth nothing.

Please provide and English link to back up your claim.

Or something with an English translator or try to detail how I can translate.

I'm very interested in reading different perspectives!

WWWTT

[dre]

Need to get Canada out of the G7 as well. Its just a big expensive party for beurocrats that doesnt help anyone except for the hookers and strip clubs in whatever country is unfortunate enough getting stuck with the security costs of hosting their wasteful events.

[WWWTT]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/tymoshenko-denies-wipe-out-russians-comment-201432513315433906.html

So the former president admits it is her!

But she denies the 8 million ethnic Russians being killed.

Starting to look more and more that Russia was in the right here.

WWWTT