The Canadian Afghanistan Expedition

[WestCoastRunner]

Two different majority governments, 12 years, 158 military lives and $multi billions Canadian tax dollars later the Canadian flags came down in Afghanistan to-day. The place and time of the official ceremony had to be withheld from the media “for security reasons” until the last minute. Our forces have officially "withdrawn”.

Was it worth it?

Back to the original question of this thread. Was it worth it?

Well, today a german journalist photographer and a canadian women were attacked by an afghanistan policeman that was supposedly protecting them with regards to the upcoming elections. The german died, the canadian women is in hospital and expected to survive. Sounds like this cop was rogue but who can anyone trust. And the attacks continue. Was it worth it? Good question?

[On Guard for Thee]

Back to the original question of this thread. Was it worth it?

Well, today a german journalist photographer and a canadian women were attacked by an afghanistan policeman that was supposedly protecting them with regards to the upcoming elections. The german died, the canadian women is in hospital and expected to survive. Sounds like this cop was rogue but who can anyone trust. And the attacks continue. Was it worth it? Good question?

Yes back to that, rather than a bunch of blah blah blah which we have come to expect from you know who. Was it worth it, no. First of all the place is divided into provinces not unlike Canada, and maybe sometimes in our hinterland we disregard what is happenning in Ottawa, but that is multiplied countlessy in Afghanistan. You cross a provincial border in any direction leaving Kabul and nobody recognizes Kharzai. We used to transport so called "graduated" Afghani soldiers from what is called the PRT (provincial reconstruction team) back to their villages to await deployment with the ANA. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of them would sell their AK 47, paid for by ISAF money, burn the uniform and fade into the Himallayas. Either because they had no loyalty or because the Taliban forced them under threat. Shariah courts are still chopping off hands, or worse, unimpeded. And look what is going on just now as we lead up to the election. I know it was worthwhile for KBR and Haliburton. And maybe that was the whole point.

[WestCoastRunner]

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of them would sell their AK 47, paid for by ISAF money, burn the uniform and fade into the Himallayas. Either because they had no loyalty or because the Taliban forced them under threat. Shariah courts are still chopping off hands, or worse, unimpeded.

That is a big problem with foreigners being there to monitor the elections. Who do you trust when you can't even trust the very policemen who are there to protect you. Was this guy really a rogue or is he representative of the bigger picture.

[On Guard for Thee]

That is a big problem with foreigners being there to monitor the elections. Who do you trust when you can't even trust the very policemen who are there to protect you. Was this guy really a rogue or is he representative of the bigger picture.

I would venture a guess and say the bigger picture. The Pashtun are the largest ethnic population on Afg. And they have a code called Pashtunwali. As was explained to me there are 4 main tenets and I won't bore you with it here. But one of them is if your father spilled my fathers blood, I have the right to spill yours. And that never ends down through the generations until there is a tit for the tat. A report I heard of the shooting you speak of says it was carried out by a policeman who had relatives killed by a drone strike, so he was, in a twisted kind of way, simply applying the aforementioned principle. How many of those "chips" remain on shoulders there. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I had to delay takeoff waiting for a drone to get away, nor how many times they returned with at least a couple of the Hellfire missles missing.

[WestCoastRunner]

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't hear about his relatives killed by a drone strike. That does put it into a better understand (not to say that it was right) but we need to remember the politics in another country. These were 2 women who were shot at point blank, the afghan interpreters and other afghan employees were left untouched. Why should we monitor these elections? What is in it for us? Should we sacrifice our countrymen's lives? These are all troublesome times in Afghanistan.

[WestCoastRunner]

And I am deeply concerned for the women and children in Afghanistan, but at what cost should we help them? That is the bigger question.

[On Guard for Thee]

That's a big question for aure. Education would have been and still is my first idea of a solution. Apparently the illiteracy rate hovers around 85%. However I could take you to at least 3 schools, built by ISAF money sitting idle after the woman teacher was shot dead at the day of opening. Even in less extreme cases it is deemed girls need no education beyond the age of 12 as that is when they should be able to read the Quran, and need to know no more. I hate to say it but I suspect it will revert to what it was 12, or 1200, years ago.

[WestCoastRunner]

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. The taliban are unfortunately making inroads again and the women in Afghanistan have warned about those exact actions happening again. It is very unfortunate. So again, was it worth it?

[On Guard for Thee]

When the going got tough, the Taliban just went to Pakistan. This is a bit of insider info., but there is a plce over on the border called Torkam where ISAF had a base. Literally on the border. There were some talks held to try and see some sort of way fwd. The Taliban said words to the effect we could take you out anytime we want, but we won't because it would draw too much attention. And I suspect they weren't just blowing smoke. They fired missles over than FOB fairly regularly, just to say hi.

[WestCoastRunner]

So my question to you is "was it worth it'? for the Canadian Expedition?

[WestCoastRunner]

I do feel that the afghanistan women would agree it was worth it and are horrified that the western countries are leaving. For a short period of time, they were able to attend school, etc. Unfortunately, the Taliban will quickly rule again.

[On Guard for Thee]

I do feel that the afghanistan women would agree it was worth it and are horrified that the western countries are leaving. For a short period of time, they were able to attend school, etc. Unfortunately, the Taliban will quickly rule again.

Travelling around Kabul was about as tense s it gets. and I've been around. And yet you would see there women with little or no head covering and they would be teachers at the university. Other places not far a way, less tense but the women knew their "place". I hasten to add it would seem my comment correlates womens freedom with tension and that was not the intent. Kabul is tense for a lot of reasons. There were some positive relations. The US sent forces from Kansas who called themselves the "fighting Farmers" and they had the agri-development team and I worked with them as support for some time. If Afghans are nothing else they are definitely farmers.and it seemed this relationship worked well. But that was one very small part and to answer the question, didn't make it "worth it"

[WestCoastRunner]

I think to some small extent, it was worth it, just to give hope to women in Afghanistan. I hope that they do fight for their rights and their children's rights. But, I also believe that once we are gone, the Taliban is back at it. I'm not sure what else we can do to help the women and children of Afghanistan. We need to stop thinking of the men of their governance of the country. We need to give governance to the women of Afghanistan.

[On Guard for Thee]

Here in Canada we have the good sense to seperate church and state. Our neighbors to the south seem to be falling back into it. Afghanistan is about as far away from that as chalk is to cheese. To me that's the whole enchalada. Get the religion out of the political picture. BTW, and I may be telling you something you already know, but if you want to get some of the flavor of the place without so much of the darkness, I highly recomment "A Thousand Splendid Suns"

[WestCoastRunner]

I have read that book, among others about Afghanistan, why my attachment to Afghanistan. But, thank you for the recommendation. Was a very good read. I highly recommend it to anyone here reading this thread.

[On Guard for Thee]

"Where Men Win Glory" is another good one. Not just for what happenned with Tillman, sad as that was, but some good history lessons in there.

[WestCoastRunner]

You are right. A good read!

[On Guard for Thee]

You are right. A good read!

I got to read it at night in my little shack in Jalalabad. And then during the day I got to go visit some of the places discussed. That was a pretty cool experience if I may say so.

[eyeball]

But you stated that such things should be undertaken once a "moral and ethical background" is developed.

Developing that entails having our noses rubbed in our own crap.

The path to enlightenment is painful. That's just how it rolls.

[Argus]

And Canada was never attacked in the first place. Going into Afghanistan because the US was attacked was not an example of 'minding our own business'.

I'm all for having a top notch military but most of those on the Left are not, preferring to let the Americans protect us if anyone threatens. Unfortunately, treaty obligations run both ways.

[Argus]

People have been backing dictators in the region for decades and even centuries. That's why so much of it including Afghanistan is such a shit hole.

Backing dictators often just means having reasonably cordial relationships with the government in power. That's what governments do. They maintain cordial relationships with each other. That area is not a shithole because of western states backing dictators. It's a shithole because of how culturally backward its people are.

[Argus]

I would venture a guess and say the bigger picture. The Pashtun are the largest ethnic population on Afg. And they have a code called Pashtunwali. As was explained to me there are 4 main tenets and I won't bore you with it here. But one of them is if your father spilled my fathers blood, I have the right to spill yours. And that never ends down through the generations until there is a tit for the tat. A report I heard of the shooting you speak of says it was carried out by a policeman who had relatives killed by a drone strike, so he was, in a twisted kind of way, simply applying the aforementioned principle. How many of those "chips" remain on shoulders there. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I had to delay takeoff waiting for a drone to get away, nor how many times they returned with at least a couple of the Hellfire missles missing.

And yet even those critical of western military activities in Afghanistan admit the great majority of civilian casualties are caused by the Taliban. Do we ever hear about members of the Taliban being killed in retaliation? Do we ever hear about outrage against the Taliban for blowing up a car in the middle of a market? Nope. So maybe this Pashtunwali thing of yours is similar to how outraged Muslims are when a Jew or Christian harms a Muslim. They're screaming mad when that happens, but if another Muslim kills a thousand Muslims they're like "Meh, who cares?".

[Argus]

I think to some small extent, it was worth it, just to give hope to women in Afghanistan. I hope that they do fight for their rights and their children's rights. But, I also believe that once we are gone, the Taliban is back at it. I'm not sure what else we can do to help the women and children of Afghanistan. We need to stop thinking of the men of their governance of the country. We need to give governance to the women of Afghanistan.

That's pie in the sky nonsense in a place like Afghanistan. Even if you leap centuries ahead, to a country like India, the attitudes about women are shockingly backward by our standards. And India is, by comparison, a civilized democracy. Yet more than half of Indian women expected to be beaten by their husbands if they went anywhere without permission, and 80% didn't think they could make a medical appointment without their husband's permission without being beaten. Now if India has that far to go to catch up to modern times, and Afghanistan is CENTURIES further behind than India, well, giving hope to any girl in Afghanistan today is foolish. It will just lead to her being beaten or killed.

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/03/20/a-grim-statistical-picture-of-married-indian-women/

[eyeball]

Backing dictators often just means having reasonably cordial relationships with the government in power. That's what governments do. They maintain cordial relationships with each other. That area is not a shithole because of western states backing dictators. It's a shithole because of how culturally backward its people are.

Having cordial relationships often mean having truck and trade with them, which often means sidestepping rules and standards pertaining to human rights and environmental degradation that we apply and comply with at home. Not doing so often keeps people backwards too. We know from our own societies experience that culture changes as rights and standards improve and taking advantage of their absence is complicity in the dictatorship that maintains that absence. It precisely fits the same definition for the term network of terror but we're worse than terrorists because we should know better.

[Argus]

Having cordial relationships often mean having truck and trade with them, which often means sidestepping rules and standards pertaining to human rights and environmental degradation that we apply and comply with at home

Yes, at home. We establish the rules which we, as a society, are comfortable with. On the one hand you're saying we should leave them alone and on the other you're saying we should somehow force them to comply with our beliefs and meet our standards within their own countries or else we'll shun them and refuse to do business with them. You don't see the contradiction there?