Female Israeli soldiers speak out about the Israeli sickness

[dre]

People's short attention spans is in fact why I think so much of this criticism of Israel exists. People forget the context of the issue and just see that currently Palestinians = underdogs and automatically sympathize with them, because of the cultural/media/film bias to do so.

Its not that people forget the context, its that these days people subscribe to completely different sets of facts and accounts of history, and sets of cherry-picked facts.

Basically you have two groups of complete assholes fighting over the same piece of godforsaken dirt, and never passing up an opportunity to poke the other in the eye with a stick. Supporters of each side cherry pick the transgressions of the opposing side and ignore the transgressions of their own.

Poeples like Rue and Hudson are in fact the exactly same person with the exact same set of claims, and opposing cherry-picked views of history.

The real victims of these pathetic religious militants on both sides are actually westerners who have been stupid enough to waste billions of dollars trying to pay these people to treat each other like people. It would be a service to humanity if militant minded people in Israel and the occupied territories all killed each other... Not to mention an entertaining spectator sport if it was properly produced.

Edited October 29, 2013 by dre

[Bonam]

The real victims of these pathetic religious militants on both sides are actually westerners who have been stupid enough to waste billions of dollars trying to pay these people to treat each other like people.

Westerners have no one else to blame but themselves for their own stupidity.

Poeples like Rue and Hudson are in fact the exactly same person with the exact same set of claims, and opposing cherry-picked views of history.

I don't think so. You don't see Rue and others like him starting thread after thread disparaging the other side. Rather, he comes to the defense of Israel when Hudson/bud/other cjpme bots make these kinds of threads. There's a difference.

Its not that people forget the context, its that these days people subscribe to completely different sets of facts and accounts of history, and sets of cherry-picked facts.

That seems to be a common problem in modern Western political discourse, where opposing sides have not only their own ideologies and opinions, but also their own sets of "facts". You certainly see that a lot in internal American politics. Anyways, that's is why I see nothing wrong with Rue constantly reminding people like bud and Hudson about the plentiful facts that they constantly like to leave out and ignore. Myself, I got tired of sparring with anti-Israeli ideologues a few years back, but so long as someone wants to keep at it, why not? Can't let the cjpme's of the world think they've got us all sold on their propaganda.

It would be a service to humanity if militant minded people in Israel and the occupied territories all killed each other

Another failed result of current Western ideology, which says that conflict there must be suppressed at all costs. Sometimes, maybe two sides really do need to just fight it out, rather than suppressing the conflict and watching it sporadically bubble back up to the surface every few years. But, the moment even a few people are killed in that part of the world, Western powers feel the need to bring all possible political pressure to bear to stop things, even while largely ignoring the deaths of hundreds of thousands in conflicts in other parts of the world. It took Europe about 1500 years of warfare to get tired of it, to end up with borders everyone could live with, and to start getting along, not sure why they expect anything faster from anyone else.

[bleeding heart]

Well there might be a ever so slight embellishment of my posts referenced by bleeding heart,

You'll have to clarify what exactly constitutes my embellishment, since you immediately afterwards repeat the same argument I've criticized.

the crux of my posts were that yes, in the past, present and I’m certain the future, we (as in the “West”) have supported, do currently support and will continue to support brutal regimes throughout the world that abuse their own populace with such measures as murder, torture and yes, rape……….

……As to direct support of such regimes for economic gain, though I stated my firm belief that it’s preferable that we obtain required resources and goods from such regions through civil and equal trade, in some instances this is not possible, as such, we’re required to either support a brutal regime or go without…….

I, like the majority within the “West”, at the end of the day, would rather pay lip service to such victims, but ultimately not go without our cheap gasoline, opiates, African diamonds, corned beef, Walmart tube socks and crappy electronics.

I'm not sure why you pretend to speak of generalities, when we were discussing a specific example. And two matters come immediately to mind:

First, your argument on this point is not, or not only, with myself....but with everyone who ever tries to deny the ugly truth (which you seem to fully concede, though your conclusions appear to be speculative at best, grotesquely illogical at worst). Which is to say, and this is no exaggeration: virtually everybody.

More to the point, you manage to evade the most obvious point which must be generated from your opinion (as you evaded it the first time around, too): you have yet to explain to me how the raping of East Timorese peasants generated wealth for Westerners in general...and for yourself and your family (as per your original example) in particular.

I daresay you'd have a terrible time of such an explanation.

It's one thing to make broad, general statements as you've done; rather like the more usual approach to the East Timor issue, wherein folks like to utter "Cold War," as if precision in argument is something to be avoided.

It's quite another thing to tackle the subject at hand, to illustrate your argument by using....well, the argument we're having.

Edited October 29, 2013 by bleeding heart

[DogOnPorch]

Timoese and Indonesians, of course, only rape & kill on the command of their Western Masters.

[Rue]

You lump my posts with posts of others that have nothing to do with me.

My position is that the rights of Israelis and Palestinians must be addressed for any real solution to occur.

I don't believe that lumping me in the category 'enemy' and attacking me for the words of others is very constructive.

You still haven't answered my posts without doing so.

And your posts are too just too long to read.

I have not referred to you as the enemy in any responses challenging your comments.

[Rue]

Poeples like Rue and Hudson are in fact the exactly same person with the exact same set of claims, and opposing cherry-picked views of history.

I come on this forum to respond to comments I consider hateful and I believe are designed to incite hartred and intolerance through the use of negative generalizations.

I would now contend your comments lumping me, Hudson Bud and all kinds of other people as assholes into one foul mouthed category in fact evidences the same kind of exercise I have challenged Hudson Bud for engaging in qhwn referring to Zionists.

Do you really presume to have worn my Zionist undies and so can now lecture about them? Creepy Dre.

Come on now... a skunk complaining about a Zionist bear farting in the words? Really?

Lol.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Rue

[bleeding heart]

Timoese and Indonesians, of course, only rape & kill on the command of their Western Masters.

The Western powers, of course, are only culpable of terror and mass murder on the command of their dictatorial masters.

Edited October 29, 2013 by bleeding heart

[GostHacked]

I come on this forum to respond to comments I consider hateful and I believe are designed to incite hartred and intolerance through the use of negative generalizations.

Good, I expect you to stop dropping the anti-semite card when posting.

[Guest American Woman]

Evidently only the "you're a Zionist!" card is to be played here - by those who have defined Zionism as a cancer that needs to be wiped out and Zionists as savages. I would think that those who are proclaiming to want dialog here would have some objection to the accusations and claims that Hudson and the poster formerly known as dub are making. Yet there are none that I recall.

As has already been pointed out, Rue isn't on here starting thread after thread after thread.... after thread ... against Palestine. Can't say the same for the CJPME members regarding Israel. So. Some will be here defending Israel as long as said members are allowed to start one anti-Israel thread after another. Ad nauseam. Seems to me anyone with any real concern over Palestine would object to that. It's certainly not doing the Palestinian cause any good.

The claim is that they support Israel, but they do not support the JEWISH state of Israel, even as the ME is quite full of Islamic states. The "Zionist government" is referred to as savages who must go - even as Hamas is in power in Palestine. Where is the outrage over that? It's non-existent.

I'll keep this short for those who can't be bothered with posts of substance, but the reality is that some come on here with nothing but propaganda-type threads - so some feel the need to respond. But for the propaganda-type threads, I'd wager that there would be at best one or two threads about the Israel-Palestine conflict during the course of a year. But as it stands, it's impossible to discuss anything with those who do nothing but throw about accusations of 'Zionist" to anyone who doesn't support their stand - especially when they've made their thoughts about Zionists quite clear.

Edited October 29, 2013 by American Woman

[jacee]

I come on this forum to respond to comments I consider hateful and I believe are designed to incite hartred and intolerance through the use of negative generalizations.

Then stop uusing negative generalizations.

I would now contend your comments lumping me, Hudson Bud and all kinds of other people as assholes into one foul mouthed category in fact evidences the same kind of exercise I have challenged Hudson Bud for engaging in qhwn referring to Zionists.

Then stop lumping people into categories.

Respond to each person's post.

.

[DogOnPorch]

Then stop uusing negative generalizations.

Then stop lumping people into categories.

Respond to each person's post.

.

I gather you found the info on Right of Return that the CJPME endorses that I posted before my removal...yes...I was sent to the Cooler, as well. Number 10...lol.

[Hudson Jones]

Its not that people forget the context, its that these days people subscribe to completely different sets of facts and accounts of history, and sets of cherry-picked facts.

Basically you have two groups of complete assholes fighting over the same piece of godforsaken dirt, and never passing up an opportunity to poke the other in the eye with a stick. Supporters of each side cherry pick the transgressions of the opposing side and ignore the transgressions of their own.

Poeples like Rue and Hudson are in fact the exactly same person with the exact same set of claims, and opposing cherry-picked views of history.

The real victims of these pathetic religious militants on both sides are actually westerners who have been stupid enough to waste billions of dollars trying to pay these people to treat each other like people. It would be a service to humanity if militant minded people in Israel and the occupied territories all killed each other... Not to mention an entertaining spectator sport if it was properly produced.

This is my first time seeing you make such a pompous, self-righteous and erroneous post.

My stance has always been that all sides should respect international law and human rights. I also believe our governments should not support any state or group who violates international law.

[dre]

I come on this forum to respond to comments I consider hateful and I believe are designed to incite hartred and intolerance through the use of negative generalizations.

No you come on here and lie through your teeth, make unfounded accusations, then refuse to back them up. In the last couple of weeks alone youve accused me of anti-semetism, denying Israels right to exist, and basically wanting to wipe out the worlds jews. When challenged multiple times to quote a post where I said anything remotely like anything of these things you failed to respond.

You outright fabricate most of the positions you argue against, and then run and hide when asked to substantiate them.

Edited October 30, 2013 by dre

[jacee]

I gather you found the info on Right of Return that the CJPME endorses that I posted before my removal...yes...I was sent to the Cooler, as well. Number 10...lol.

Seriously?

For that?

Yes I found it.

That's not likely.

I don't recall whether restitution and compensation have been addressed?

I know there are many difficult issues - where are the borders, access to resources, etc.

But it must be time to stop standing six feet apart and shooting out each other's eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye ... for an eye ?

Edited October 30, 2013 by jacee

[bud]

i don't see this conflict having two sides who should receive equal blame for what has transpired. a balanced and fair conversation does not mean that one must make it sound like each side should be blamed equally. the reality is that the ball is in israel's court and they have the power to change the course, but they refuse to do so.

israel is already a state, but a state without defined borders. why? because it refuses to accept the internationally recognized borders while it continues to expand the illegal, jewish-only settlements on palestinian land. those in power in israel are happy with the status quo, because the longer it stalls progress, the more land it can annex.

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Oct. 17 (UPI) -- Israeli construction in the West Bank increased by 70 percent from January to June compared to the same period in 2012, an anti-settlement advocacy group said.

A report released by the group, Peace Now, said more than 340,000 settlers live in the West Bank, more than triple the number who lived there 20 years ago when the 1990s Oslo Accords were signed.

link

how long must this go on until people stop walking on eggshells when discussing the issue? how much longer will people play the fence sitter and not call the situation what it is, which is colonialism, backed by western governments and partially funded by the western governments?

people keep asking the palestinians to put down their arms and protest non-violently, as if this is the reason that there is no progress. well guess what? it's been going on for a while. there are numerous peaceful protests by palestinians all over the west bank, which are met by the aggressive and violent occupation forces. these peaceful protests and israel's response to them happen regularly.

link

how does it make sense to play the fence sitter when this is going on: there is a plan to remove over 40,000 bedouins in the negev region, in order to take over their land. this is called ethnic cleansing. in the western media and by the fence sitter, it's called the "israeli/palestinian conflict".

link

the jewish settlers in the west bank are given impunity to do as they please. they burn down olive trees, beat palestinians, steal and kill sheep, throw stone and nothing happens to them while palestinian children are taken into custody in the middle of the night, by the idf, to instill fear into them. they're kept in prison without due process, simply because they're not jewish.

link

[bleeding heart]

I'll keep this short for those who can't be bothered with posts of substance, but the reality is that some come on here with nothing but propaganda-type threads - so some feel the need to respond. But for the propaganda-type threads, I'd wager that there would be at best one or two threads about the Israel-Palestine conflict during the course of a year. But as it stands, it's impossible to discuss anything with those who do nothing but throw about accusations of 'Zionist" to anyone who doesn't support their stand - especially when they've made their thoughts about Zionists quite clear.

I think this is absolutely correct...and as you surely know, it goes both ways, regardless of who started any thread.

Myself, Dre, and doubtless many others have been unfairly deemed "anti-semites"...the word "Zionism" need not appear (and I personally don't go into that part of the discussion at all, ever); all one need do is claim bad behavior on the part of Israel...and it won't take long for the anti-Semite label to appear, boiling like a mass of maggots in rotten meat.

I should add a point that's not even debatable--anyone who accuses me, personally, of anti-Semitism...is a moral coward and an intellectual loser, without exception.

[GostHacked]

I should add a point that's not even debatable--anyone who accuses me, personally, of anti-Semitism...is a moral coward and an intellectual loser, without exception.

Out of everything I will read today, this will be the best line of this day.

[GostHacked]

Is this productive?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24741524

Israel has announced plans to build new homes in a Jewish settlement in occupied East Jerusalem, hours after freeing 26 Palestinian prisoners.

Officials said the construction of 1,500 housing units at Ramat Shlomo was one of four projects given approval.

Actually they are illegal settlements. Proper terminology is important, right?

The plans, which were approved by the Jerusalem district planning committee in September 2011, include the construction of 1,531 housing units, public buildings and gardens.

Road map.

[bleeding heart]

Out of everything I will read today, this will be the best line of this day.

In most contexts, it's a totally unfair pre-emptive strike.

But because it goes after those (and only those) who intentionally use such unfair "debating" tactics, it's all good.

[GostHacked]

In most contexts, it's a totally unfair pre-emptive strike.

Preemptive strikes are a good thing. Right? Gotta get them before they get us?

But because it goes after those (and only those) who intentionally use such unfair "debating" tactics, it's all good.

Well there is no winning even when knowing the difference between a Jew an Israeli and a Zionist.

[dre]

Preemptive strikes are a good thing. Right? Gotta get them before they get us?

Well there is no winning even when knowing the difference between a Jew an Israeli and a Zionist.

You can see why they do it though! Labeling all critisism of a state as "racism" is an effective way to shut down or reframe the debate. This is a fixture of the debate thats as old as the debate itself. Interesting enough it even gets used on Jews... the millions of jews that oppose Israeli behavior in the occupied terrorities are the :"self loathing" ones.

[Rue]

Preemptive strikes are a good thing. Right? Gotta get them before they get us?

Well there is no winning even when knowing the difference between a Jew an Israeli and a Zionist.

You came on this post to make giggly about not liking Zionists. That evidenced you think you can make sweeping negative generalizations as long as you feel the person is a Zionist.

That is what you were criticized for by me and you can spin all you want now that its ok to engage in negative stereotypes as long as its Zionists you do this with in my opinion is b.s. It is illogical no matter who you direct your disparaging comments at.

The post site using the name Bud called for the wiping out of all Zionists and refers to Zionists as disgusting. That speaks for itself and the continuing context of coming on this forum-to say just that over and over.

As for the post site then using the word Bud, it made clear its mandate is to deny the right of Jews to form a state collective.

The names Hudson and Bud have continuously come on this forum repeating the same comments that Israel has no right to exist as a jewish state and any Jew who feels that way is to be referenced in a derogatory tone decribing them all with the same assumed negative characteristics.

That is what they evidenced and continue to evidence in their responses and that is what you came on this post to do and did and thought you would get a giggle over.

Trying to deflect what you said or they said to try portray yourselves as innocent victims of anti-semitic allegations is laughable. No one has called you an anti-semite because you think you can hate all Zionists-it makes you a closed minded bigot yes but anti semitic? Lol I doubt you even know what a Jew is if that makes you feel better.

If you want to portray yourself as a victim of unfair allegations on this forum in this post, look back at how you smeer Zionists. Smeer people and you will be responded to and challenged. That does not make you a victim, just someone being told your negative stereotypes are being challenged as closed minded, illogical, hateful and designed to disparage Jews or anyone who supports Jews who want to live in a collective state.

Anything else?

[Rue]

You can see why they do it though! Labeling all critisism of a state as "racism" is an effective way to shut down or reframe the debate. This is a fixture of the debate thats as old as the debate itself. Interesting enough it even gets used on Jews... the millions of jews that oppose Israeli behavior in the occupied terrorities are the :"self loathing" ones.

Interesting enough it has been used by you, Hudson, Bud, and Ghost to depict all Jews who support a collective state as racist and then have the audacity to come on this forum, ignore that and try flip it around to suggest things that have not been stated on this post in response to the threads negatively stereotyping all Zionists let alone Jews who support a collective Jewish state as racist.

You are something. Hudson comes on this forum to call all Zionists as racists and needing to be wiped out and that slips your fancy, but then you have the selective audacity to suggest its only done the other way to insult non Zionist Jews by Zionists.

Get it clear. If a Jew does not want to live in a collective state or support the state of Israel they have many reasons. No one came on this post when challenging HudsonBudGhost and stated all Jews who do not support Israel are self loathing. No one. You and they on the other hand continue as you just did now to come on this post and make sweeping generalizations as to the thoughts, positions and motives of an entire group of people and that is what is being challenged.

You flip around what you engage in and try suggest the people challenging you for doing it are the ones doing it.

If it wasn't so contradictory it would be funny but I doubt you have a clue you keep engaging in the very exercise you are trying to accuse an imaginary pro Zionist stereptype of engaging in..

[Guest American Woman]

I think this is absolutely correct...and as you surely know, it goes both ways, regardless of who started any thread.

Myself, Dre, and doubtless many others have been unfairly deemed "anti-semites"...the word "Zionism" need not appear (and I personally don't go into that part of the discussion at all, ever); all one need do is claim bad behavior on the part of Israel...and it won't take long for the anti-Semite label to appear, boiling like a mass of maggots in rotten meat.

I should add a point that's not even debatable--anyone who accuses me, personally, of anti-Semitism...is a moral coward and an intellectual loser, without exception.

I've don't play the anti-semite card, so I won't even get into whether "you, dre, and doubtless many other have been unfairly labeled as such" - I will just point out that when posters claim that Zionists are savages/Zionism is a cancer that should be wiped off the face of the earth - and then call people here a Zionist - it's taking it to a different level.

[dre]

Interesting enough it has been used by you, Hudson, Bud, and Ghost to depict all Jews who support a collective state as racist and then have the audacity to come on this forum, ignore that and try flip it around to suggest things that have not been stated on this post in response to the threads negatively stereotyping all Zionists let alone Jews who support a collective Jewish state as racist.

No thats just a complete and total lie. Prove I said anything of the sort (dont worry I wont hold my breath waiting for you to back up your false accusations as usual).

This is just more of your usual routine.