Toronto Firefighters fired -- for tweets

[Black Dog]

Aren't Upper Body tests mostly based on body weight. For example benching your own weight, doing pull ups or push ups.

I'm sure lot's of strong men can't pass police or military testing cuz they can't do that many chin-ups.

Why it's almost as if there's a lot of variance within the genders...

[Guest American Woman]

Though i gotta say, given the work firefighters do these days, a proper test would have to include "cook a meal for 12" and "wash a firetruck, then wash it again" or perhaps "watch Breaking Bad without spoiling it for the next shift."

Firefighters in most fire departments now take part in public education, fire inspections, and other forms of community outreach. Almost all fire departments provide emergency medical response at the basic level, and many offer full-service paramedic care and patient transport. Special units of firefighters are trained to handle hazardous materials ("hazmat") incidents, fast-water rescue, dive rescue (SCUBA), and technical (high-angle and collapse) rescue. Arson investigation, fire code enforcement and fire safety education often form separate divisions within the fire department. A wide range of community-service careers has replaced the limited choices of a generation ago.

The field has become increasingly professional. It's not unusual for firefighters to have at least a two-year degree in fire science or some other field, and chiefs of most major departments are expected to have master's degrees.

http://www.i-women.org/women_firefighting.php

But don't let the facts get in the way of your derrogatory remarks.

[Boges]

Firefighters in most fire departments now take part in public education, fire inspections, and other forms of community outreach. Almost all fire departments provide emergency medical response at the basic level, and many offer full-service paramedic care and patient transport. Special units of firefighters are trained to handle hazardous materials ("hazmat") incidents, fast-water rescue, dive rescue (SCUBA), and technical (high-angle and collapse) rescue. Arson investigation, fire code enforcement and fire safety education often form separate divisions within the fire department. A wide range of community-service careers has replaced the limited choices of a generation ago.

The field has become increasingly professional. It's not unusual for firefighters to have at least a two-year degree in fire science or some other field, and chiefs of most major departments are expected to have master's degrees.

http://www.i-women.org/women_firefighting.php

But don't let the facts get in the way of your derrogatory remarks.

All that says to me is they have to find other things to occupy their time and justify their existence since the instances of fires requiring "fighting" are declining but they often demand pay increases inline with police.

[Guest American Woman]

All that says to me is they have to find other things to occupy their time and justify their existence since the instances of fires requiring "fighting" are declining but they often demand pay increases inline with police.

Are you serious?? You think the activities on that list are just "time fillers" to "justify their existance??"

emergency medical response at the basic level

full-service paramedic care and patient transport.

handling hazardous materials ("hazmat") incidents

fast-water rescue

dive rescue (SCUBA)

technical (high-angle and collapse) rescue

arson investigation

fire code enforcement

fire safety education

Just your run-of-the-mill "time fillers."

[Boges]

Are you serious?? You think the activities on that list are just "time fillers" to "justify their existance??"

emergency medical response at the basic level

full-service paramedic care and patient transport.

handling hazardous materials ("hazmat") incidents

fast-water rescue

dive rescue (SCUBA)

technical (high-angle and collapse) rescue

arson investigation

fire code enforcement

fire safety education

Just your run-of-the-mill "time fillers."

Do you any numbers to suggest how much, doing those tasks in bold, take up an average firefighter in North America's day? And are all firefighters trained to do all these tasks?

As for medical care. This is an interesting debate. The reason that firefighters often attend to medical calls is because laws say there needs to be a certain response time for fire calls that is quicker than that of EMS staff. So when a medical call comes in chances are the firefighter will beat the EMS staff there.

Now if only EMS staff were stationed at the Fire Department that problem would be solved. I believe many places in the US do this: New York City is a popular example. Ever watch the show Third Watch?

In Ontario, unions get in the way. Fire Department unions are very powerful. In Toronto, for example EMS staff are represented by the same union that represents the garbage men, while the the Fire Service has it's own union.

Doesn't seem to make sense, they should be merged.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Are you serious?? You think the activities on that list are just "time fillers" to "justify their existance??"

emergency medical response at the basic level

full-service paramedic care and patient transport.

handling hazardous materials ("hazmat") incidents

fast-water rescue

dive rescue (SCUBA)

technical (high-angle and collapse) rescue

arson investigation

fire code enforcement

fire safety education

Just your run-of-the-mill "time fillers."

That's a lot of specialized work most front line firefighters will never, ever deal with.

[guyser]

Are you serious?? You think the activities on that list are just "time fillers" to "justify their existance??"

emergency medical response at the basic level- we have ambulances ans EMS, Firemen who showed up last week to a mc accident I witnessed stood around and told jokes.

full-service paramedic care and patient transport.-See above, and better trained

handling hazardous materials ("hazmat") incidents- For sure, they earn money for this one.

fast-water rescue- Police work , more of them and well trained.

dive rescue (SCUBA)-Police divers are on call 24-7. They are better for this anyhow.

technical (high-angle and collapse) rescue-Yup, this is for firemen

arson investigation-firemen dont do this and it s BS to include it. We have a FIre Marshalls Office who handle this exclusively.

fire code enforcement-Inspectors, not firemen do this here

fire safety education- Sketchy this one is.

The point is, pretty much more than half of that list is justification for their existence.

Pretty much mirrors the war on drugs.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Guyser2

[cybercoma]

Let me ask you this. Have you ever actually met any women? Ever spoken to any? Because that last comment was idiotic. These were casual tweets quoting TV shows. You seriously think any women their age (except for the oh-so-precious politically correct) would be bothered by those?

I continue to find it amazing how absolutely devoted some of you are to any form of authority. Well, if that's the rules, that's the rules. Sorry, you had your toe one inch across that line. It's the gas chamber for you. Rules are rules after all, and who am I to question their fairness or wisdom?

Aggressive and misogynistic language is part of pop culture, so that makes it ok?

[cybercoma]

It indicates absolutely nothing of the sort other than the typical jock-talk mentality.

Which shows they unthinkingly accept misogyny. I guess that's your point?

[cybercoma]

So women are held accountable for what they post, too.

And I mentioned earlier a woman that was fired for her idiotic racist comments made while on the show Big Brother. So yeah, the consequences aren't just for men.

[bleeding heart]

This "blue-collar guy" theme is silly...and assumes that they are somehow less civilized, and so less should be expected of them.

Virtually my entire adult life (until quite recently) has been in the "working class" or "blue-collar" realm. And these people are as intellectually and emotionally sophisticated as anyone else.

It's certainly true that you'll likely hear more profanity--because it's essentially used as punctuation, adjectives, and adverbs. But sexism?

Not really more than you'll hear anywhere else, at least not a truly demonstrable difference.

Edited September 19, 2013 by bleeding heart

[g_bambino]

Well like it or not, there is a double standard.

You can't really accuse a woman of being sexist towards men. It's very difficult for a man to get authorities to step in when they feel they're being abused physically or mentally by another woman.

We as men are just meant to suck it up.

That seems to be the case...

[g_bambino]

Aggressive and misogynistic language is part of pop culture, so that makes it ok?

Perhaps it's popularly acceptable because most people don't see it as being as aggressively misogynistic as you do? Maybe they can tell the difference between a joke (often self-satirising) and an expression of conviction.

[bleeding heart]

Perhaps it's popularly acceptable because most people don't see it as being as aggressively misogynistic as you do? Maybe they can tell the difference between a joke (often self-satirising) and an expression of conviction.

Well, it raises some interesting questions, though, doesn't it?

Just because a couple of the sources (South Park, The Office) were plainly satire doesn't obviously carry over to those who use the same jokes in other contexts.

That is, some people find the jokes funny precisely because they aren't true; that is, some people are by implication laughing at the sexist views that some people hold.

Whereas other people find them funny because they think they are true.

(For example, as an analogy, while perusing the Stormfront website, I happened across a discussion of the film "American History X." Most of these guys seemed to actually like the movie--which features an intelligent and articulate racist. And yet the movie is so anti-racist that it's practically sermonizing.)

And if the firefighters had quoted racist jokes, I don't think we'd even be having this discussion.

Why not, do you suppose?

[Argus]

It's Toronto Fire Services.

Except, my sister rather proves you wrong. She had enough upper body strength and size to pass the same tests to become a firefighter as the men took, men's upper body strength and size being the standard of qualification you chose. According to you, though, she shouldn't have got the job.

[ed.: +]

Look, this is elementary stuff. Men are stronger than women does not mean no woman is as strong as some men. Just, by and large, men are stronger. The men who apply for the firefighters tests (and police) tend to be young and in peak physical condition. There are few women as strong as them, and if that weren't the case they wouldn't need different tests or need to lower the requirements.

A lot of men pass the firefighters/police tests. What happens is that their combined score gets them on a list, and those at the top of the list are hired. Except, of course, that then the politically correct move in and start scooping up women and minorities from lower down on the list (sometimes way down), provided they pass the tests.

But just passing the test is rarely enough otherwise. Lots pass, but passing isn't the same as passing in the top 100 or the top 50 or the top 25.

Let me put it this way. If you had to have heart surgery would you choose a female heart surgeon who finished in the bottom 20% of her class, or a male surgeon who finished in the top 20%?

Again, I couldn't pass these tests. Even when I was younger I couldn't have passed them. No way in the world would I have suggested the tests be made easier so I could have passed and then be chosen ahead of fifty guys who did better.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

Aggressive and misogynistic language is part of pop culture, so that makes it ok?

On your own time, in something as little known as a 'tweet', yeah.

Now if you go on TV and start pretending to represent your department, or speaking while on duty, that's different.

[Argus]

Which shows they unthinkingly accept misogyny. I guess that's your point?

Maybe that the term misogyny gets thrown around a lot where it has no real application.

[Argus]

But don't let the facts get in the way of your derrogatory remarks.

So let me see if I get your position here. It seems to be that since some firefighters do other things that don't require physical strength then firefighters shouldn't need to have physical strength. Is that about it?

[Black Dog]

Well, it raises some interesting questions, though, doesn't it?

Just because a couple of the sources (South Park, The Office) were plainly satire doesn't obviously carry over to those who use the same jokes in other contexts.

FWIW, the whole "get in the kitchen and make me X (usually it's a sandwich)" is pretty common, especially online, as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women.

Anyway it's weird for someone to say on the one hand that 20 something blue collar men are too unsophisticated to not make homophobic/sexist jokes, while on the other suggest they were consciously channeling the pointed satire of popular TV shows.

[Argus]

And if the firefighters had quoted racist jokes, I don't think we'd even be having this discussion.

Why not, do you suppose?

Maybe because men have been making jokes about women for just about as long as women have been making jokes about men?

Maybe because while there are some few people who hate minorities there are virtually no men who hate women, despite overruse of the term misogyny.

[bleeding heart]

Anyway it's weird for someone to say on the one hand that 20 something blue collar men are too unsophisticated to not make homophobic/sexist jokes, while on the other suggest they were consciously channeling the pointed satire of popular TV shows.

Thank you, well said.

[Argus]

FWIW, the whole "get in the kitchen and make me X (usually it's a sandwich)" is pretty common, especially online, as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women.

Anyway it's weird for someone to say on the one hand that 20 something blue collar men are too unsophisticated to not make homophobic/sexist jokes, while on the other suggest they were consciously channeling the pointed satire of popular TV shows.

The point I'm making is that there is a difference between people who work in the mind constricting, soul destroying confines of cubicle land all their lives, and those who are out and about working physical jobs. The latter don't tend to be as ultra sensitive to 'offensive' comments, especially when clearly made as jokes.

[jacee]

The point I'm making is that there is a difference between people who work in the mind constricting, soul destroying confines of cubicle land all their lives, and those who are out and about working physical jobs. The latter don't tend to be as ultra sensitive to 'offensive' comments, especially when clearly made as jokes.

Do you think their girlfriends/wives/sisters/daughters/female coworkers enjoy their "jokes"? Especially the violent anti-women jokes?

I think the best thing about this incident is the attention it has focused on these creeps and their creepy 'jokes'.

And I don't give a rat's a** if you agree with me! STFU and get to the fridge and get me a beer, sonny!

Edited September 19, 2013 by jacee

[Black Dog]

The point I'm making is that there is a difference between people who work in the mind constricting, soul destroying confines of cubicle land all their lives, and those who are out and about working physical jobs.

I get that. I don't see why it should be shrugged off, though.

The latter don't tend to be as ultra sensitive to 'offensive' comments, especially when clearly made as jokes.

So let me get this straight: if someone makes a serious comment about, say, Jews being cheap, that's bad form. but if the same guy cracks a joke about Jews being cheap, that's ok because, hey, jokes. Is that right?

[bleeding heart]

The point I'm making is that there is a difference between people who work in the mind constricting, soul destroying confines of cubicle land all their lives, and those who are out and about working physical jobs. The latter don't tend to be as ultra sensitive to 'offensive' comments, especially when clearly made as jokes.

As I said earlier, in my experience that's not so perfectly clear. The working class joes tend to be as sensitive to people's potentially hurt feelings as everyone else. I believe I've heard as much bigotry and ugliness in the university as I ever did in the woods or on the construction site.

More F-bombs...no question. But that's about as far as it goes.

Edited September 19, 2013 by bleeding heart