Toronto Firefighters fired -- for tweets

[Boges]

Well we don't know if these guys had been written up before or warned about behaviour unbecoming of a firefighter.

If this was their first offense than perhaps I would agree that the termination was heavy-handed.

But their must be some legal reason they can give for termination. Otherwise these firefighters can sue for improper dismissal.

[Black Dog]

What you've got is some blue collar guys, young, cocky blue collar guys full of piss and vinegar joking around and acting a bit stupid. How is it they're supposed to conduct themselves, even in their private lives, to suit the prune faced spinsters who live to be offended by anything a guy like this says or does? it's ridiculous, and it's a waste of money to throw away three guys careers when the taxpayer has spent a fortune hiring and training them.

By not being assholes? Dunno, seems pretty straightforward to me. These are grown-ass men, not 14 year olds: "boys will be boys" doesn't wash.

[cybercoma]

Good point. Maybe they have been warned before. Maybe their employer even used the example of wearing your uniform in social media pictures in the past when talking to employees about conduct. Who knows.

[g_bambino]

Of course it doesn't, but when they're dressed in their uniform they're certainly tying their employer's image to their content.

Perhaps. But, even that's contingent upon the badges of the actual fire department being identifiable in the photo. I saw the one guy's; he's in his fire fighting equipment. It was difficult to tell whether or not one could see he was employed by the Toronto Fire Services. I've no idea what the other two men's Twitter profiles showed.

[Moonlight Graham]

If those posts were isolated thoughts that would be one thing, but they were responses to the Force's move to try and diversify the make-up of firefighters they employ.

Do you have any evidence of this?

[Boges]

Do you have any evidence of this?

I already admitted, I kind of don't.

The story I linked mentioned that the Force had started a program to diversity. It's not crazy to think that these "anti-women" tweets were a response to that, but there's no concrete evidence I've seen to indicate that.

Either way it indicates these guys have anti-women opinions.

[Argus]

No one suggested they can't do the job.

These guys are getting fired for making their employer look bad in the public square by being sexist morons.

The policy cited in media reports clearly states what they did was wrong. No confusion.

Now should they have been fired? Perhaps not, we'll see if appeals work.

Needless to say no woman will want to work with them anymore.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever actually met any women? Ever spoken to any? Because that last comment was idiotic. These were casual tweets quoting TV shows. You seriously think any women their age (except for the oh-so-precious politically correct) would be bothered by those?

I continue to find it amazing how absolutely devoted some of you are to any form of authority. Well, if that's the rules, that's the rules. Sorry, you had your toe one inch across that line. It's the gas chamber for you. Rules are rules after all, and who am I to question their fairness or wisdom?

[Argus]

I already admitted, I kind of don't.

The story I linked mentioned that the Force had started a program to diversity. It's not crazy to think that these "anti-women" tweets were a response to that, but there's no concrete evidence I've seen to indicate that.

Either way it indicates these guys have anti-women opinions.

It indicates absolutely nothing of the sort other than the typical jock-talk mentality.

[Argus]

By not being assholes? Dunno, seems pretty straightforward to me. These are grown-ass men, not 14 year olds: "boys will be boys" doesn't wash.

Do you know any blue collar guys in their twenties? I've worked with plenty, and girls too. For the record, the women are more foul mouthed. But the guys are always posturing and many of them say things purposefully to seem outrageous. They don't mean anything by it. Firing them is a reflexive decision by soulless bureacrats who want to look good to the media.

[Boges]

It indicates absolutely nothing of the sort other than the typical jock-talk mentality.

What's "Jock-Talk" about anti-women jokes?

Ironically Eric Cartmen and Dwight Schrute are some of the least macho fiction male characters in comedy.

Both are cowardly bullies.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Boges

[Moonlight Graham]

Far too heavy handed to fire these guys.

REprimand for sure, but firing?

I agree. But as others have said, we don't know if there were prior incidents.

Also, these guys get fired for these tweets, but have the officials who fired them actually spent any time around a fire station? Similar to what Argus said, hang around any group of firefighters, cops, construction workers/carpenters/electricians/plumbers (any tradesmen), soldiers, sports players, etc. and they will all say similar things to each other while on the job. It's just that these firefighters were dumb enough to say them publicly. If we had speech police following around people working in these professions and firing them for saying such things we'd have few of these workers left anywhere. BTW I'm not trying to defend what they said (they deserved to be punished), but to show how widespread their speech is within male-dominated occupations.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Moonlight Graham

[Guest American Woman]

Evidently they were originally suspended with pay, not without pay as I said previously, while the investigation took place. From what I've read, Toronto Fire doesn't have its own social media policy but follows that of the city of Toronto staff.

These guidelines says employees should “not engage in harassment, personal attacks, or abuse toward individuals or organizations,” and “not use language that is discriminatory, hateful, or violent towards identifiable groups or that incites others to discriminate, practise hate or violence.”

Most of the city’s social media policies apply both to people tweeting from official city accounts, such as @311Toronto or @TorontoCouncil, and to their personal accounts.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/08/23/two_toronto_firefighters_suspended_for_quoting_sitcoms_on_twitter.html

[Argus]

For the record, firefighting is for women, too. Not just men.

For the record, women should not be firefighters. They don't have the upper body strength, and for the most part, don't have the size. Fire departments, in the interest of political correctness, have lowered their physical requirements repeatedly in order to allow women to claim equality. Guess what? They're not equal. There are some strong female police/ambulance/firefighters, but most of them just can't pull the weight when it comes down to it.

[Argus]

Evidently they were originally suspended with pay, not without pay as I said previously, while the investigation took place. From what I've read, Toronto Fire doesn't have its own social media policy but follows that of the city of Toronto staff.

These guidelines says employees should “not engage in harassment, personal attacks, or abuse toward individuals or organizations,” and “not use language that is discriminatory, hateful, or violent towards identifiable groups or that incites others to discriminate, practise hate or violence.”

Most of the city’s social media policies apply both to people tweeting from official city accounts, such as @311Toronto or @TorontoCouncil, and to their personal accounts.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/08/23/two_toronto_firefighters_suspended_for_quoting_sitcoms_on_twitter.html

The problem with rules like that is most people, even if aware of them, would not think what these guys tweeted fell into any of those categories. But you are another of those "authority is always in the right no matter what" people, so I wouldn't expect you to do anything but defend their firing.

[Boges]

For the record, women should not be firefighters. They don't have the upper body strength, and for the most part, don't have the size. Fire departments, in the interest of political correctness, have lowered their physical requirements repeatedly in order to allow women to claim equality. Guess what? They're not equal. There are some strong female police/ambulance/firefighters, but most of them just can't pull the weight when it comes down to it.

Good thing that fighting actual fires is becoming less a part of the job.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/how-firefighters-fan-the-flames-of-fear/article7445707/

Thanks to better building materials and awareness, the number of fires in the United States, for example, has plunged in recent years more than 40 per cent since the 1970s, according to the U.S. Fire Prevention Association. But the number of professional firefighters has increased 40 per cent.

We like to think of firefighters as brave men who rush into burning buildings and risk their lives to save others. And so they do once in a while. These days, the overwhelming majority of their work is responding to medical emergencies many of them non-life-threatening, such as picking up elderly people who have fallen down. Of course we have EMS for that. But firefighters have to justify their existence. So they race to the scene because they can often get there a few minutes faster than the paramedics can. The evidence that this faster response saves lives is scant to non-existent.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Boges

[Moonlight Graham]

I already admitted, I kind of don't.

Sorry I didn't see that.

Either way it indicates these guys have anti-women opinions.

Maybe they do, but from the tweets most of them seem like jokes and not serious commentary.

I'll admit that I personally make homophobic and racist jokes all the time with my friends, but I don't actually mean what I say at all and I'm not homophobic or racist in real life. I also make sexist jokes directly at female friends sometimes, but I don't mean what I say but rather just say them to get a light-hearted rise out of my female friends.

[Boges]

Sorry I didn't see that.

Maybe they do, but from the tweets most of them seem like jokes and not serious commentary.

I'll admit that I personally make homophobic and racist jokes all the time with my friends, but I don't actually mean what I say at all and I'm not homophobic or racist in real life. I also make sexist jokes directly at female friends sometimes, but I don't mean what I say but rather just say them to get a light-hearted rise out of my female friends.

I think were all fooling ourselves if we, as males, don't sometimes find racist, sexist or even homophobic comedy funny. There was a Roast of James Franco on Comedy a few weeks ago and it was full of offensive material that, in Canada, could find one of us in front of a Human Rights Tribunal.

But these guys published the material in the public forum making their identity well know. I don't think a "boys will be boys" defense applies.

Again I think it's alarming that people can be terminated from their job for things they say off the job. But what these guys did showed very poor judgement. It's akin to posting provocative pictures of yourself on Facebook and not expecting blowback.

It's a brave new world of the internet and who knows where it will lead. Because people say vile stuff on Twitter all the time. See the reaction to the new Miss America.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Boges

[Boges]

BTW since we're on the topic. What about this story?

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/05/saint-marys-university-frosh-chant-about-underage-sex

It's not the same but it shows an acceptance of sexism in a younger generation that I find quite alarming.

[Guest American Woman]

The problem with rules like that is most people, even if aware of them, would not think what these guys tweeted fell into any of those categories. But you are another of those "authority is always in the right no matter what" people, so I wouldn't expect you to do anything but defend their firing.

Oh, I am, am I?

Nowhere have I "defended" their firing. I have even pointed out that the Union is on this, and if they were wrongly fired, will be reinstated. I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind the actions, and quite frankly, if they knew what the rules for social media were, they were pretty stupid to post what they did.

As a sidenote, you don't speak for "most people." You speak for yourself.

But to throw your mindset back at you - 'you're another of those sexist males, so I wouldn't expect you to do anything but defend their actions.' Does that help you see how ignorant your judgement of me was?

[Black Dog]

Do you know any blue collar guys in their twenties? I've worked with plenty, and girls too. For the record, the women are more foul mouthed. But the guys are always posturing and many of them say things purposefully to seem outrageous. They don't mean anything by it. Firing them is a reflexive decision by soulless bureacrats who want to look good to the media.

I don't know if firing them was the right call or not: I'm not privy to all the information. But I reiterate: boys will be boys doesn't wash when we're talking about adults. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations. Perhaps now they'll understand there's such a thing as social consequences for being stupid bros.

For the record, women should not be firefighters. They don't have the upper body strength, and for the most part, don't have the size. Fire departments, in the interest of political correctness, have lowered their physical requirements repeatedly in order to allow women to claim equality. Guess what? They're not equal. There are some strong female police/ambulance/firefighters, but most of them just can't pull the weight when it comes down to it.

Any evidence to support this?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Black Dog

[Argus]

I don't know if firing them was the right call or not: I'm not privy to all the information. But I reiterate: boys will be boys doesn't wash when we're talking about adults. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations. Perhaps now they'll understand there's such a thing as social consequences for being stupid bros.

Sure. And how fishermen would there be in Canada if only the most politically correct were allowed to do the work?

Attempting to hold people to standards of behavior which are well above what is standard in that segment of society is stupid. Most every guy I know says outrageous things from time to time, and that includes racist, sexist, and homophobic stuff. Almost none of it is serious, nor meant to be taken seriously. The problem is the politically correct are way out of touch with ordinary people.

Any evidence to support this?

Get yourself an anatomy textbook.

[g_bambino]

For the record, women should not be firefighters. They don't have the upper body strength, and for the most part, don't have the size. Fire departments, in the interest of political correctness, have lowered their physical requirements repeatedly in order to allow women to claim equality.

My sister is a firefighter. She took the same tests as the men.

[Argus]

My sister is a firefighter. She took the same tests as the men.

Yes, the tests which were watered down so she could pass them.

As an example, you used to have to pick up a dummy over your shoulders in the traditional "fireman's carry" and carry it down several flights of stairs. Then they changed that to simply dragging it down the stairs. Then they changed it to simply dragging it across a level space.

Nothing against your sister. There are some big strong girls around. But they will never be as strong as big strong boys. And while physical strength isn't always a neccessity in the work they do it is sometimes, and it never hurts to have it.

Note, I would not consider myself to be physically strong enough for the job.

[g_bambino]

Perhaps now they'll understand there's such a thing as social consequences for being stupid bros.

Are there social consequences for being stupid chicks? Or, are the standards for being a stupid chick different to those for stupid bros?

[g_bambino]

Yes, the tests which were watered down so she could pass them.

No, there are standard tests for the men; they could not have been rewritten and equipment and all other sundry details reworked and rearranged just to suit her decision announced at the start of the testing days. There were separate tests for the female candidates and those went ahead at another time, without my sister and one other woman taking part.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited September 18, 2013 by g_bambino