What to do with Canada Post?

[Argus]

The opposite is true. The US has moved more people from poverty into the middle class than any other nation on earth.

Yeah? When? Citation please.

The other western nations you are talking about, are generally running unemployment rates of 10 - 30%.

The unemployment rate varies widely. Switzerland 4% Austria is 4.6%, Germany 6.3, Denmark 7. Most of the higher unemployment countries are in eastern Europe and southern Europe. And that's not because they're not cutthroat places like the US, but because they had poor systems and governments in place and other systemic issues. Some are higher than the US rate, some lower.

But it's worth noting all these countries have robust social safety nets and a lot of respect for unions and for workers rights. The US has neither. Half of US fast food workers need government subsidies to eat. One third of bank tellers are collecting government assistance. They have jobs in the US, sure, but a lot of them have such low pay rates people can't afford to feed themselves. Walmart had a food drive last month for its own employees! Is this what you're crowing about when you talk about the great US employment situation?

And yet all those things happened 50 years ago, when the government was barely a shell of the behemoth it is today. But of course, it has to endlessly get BIGGER, BIGGER! After all, I don't know how I dressed myself or wiped my own bum before government was here to do it for me.

Everyone whines about big government, but everyone wants it to do everything to solve every problem too. And those things happening were a major part of the reason for the growth of government. You want programs that help disabled people and pay them? You got to hire people for that. You want to distribute money to parents who have small children? Someone has to administer those programs. You want a massive GST collection and redistribution system? That takes a lot of administrators. You want complicated pogey systems, a variety of public pension systems, grants for business, farms, fishermen, for tourism, for french and ethnic cultural festivals and organizations, all that takes cash and administrators. Everyone wants to cut taxes, but try cutting programs and watch the outcry! The tories cut a couple of small programs that fed money to a few artists in Quebec and it cost them half their support in that province!

Get it through your fat head that the more things government does the more employees it needs. Nor are they all sitting around the wine fountains at works while clerks wave palm fronds at them. Of the three people I've spoken to about their work in the last week.

1 RCMP working 60hrs a week trying to manage a large, disparate group.

2 Health Canada, skipping lunches and breaks trying to take care of a flood of work since half her clerks were laid off. Remaining clerks are looking to get out, others going on stress leave.

3 CRA skipping lunches and breaks, and working extra half hour a day trying to cope with work after layoffs and also having to jet around the country to tax centres for reviews because those tax centres were all moved out of Ottawa decades ago for political purposes (into the ridings of powerful Liberal MPs.

[Topaz]

Why doesn't the feds just sell it off and let it go private and hiring experience workers won't be a problem, just as long as it fair all around on both sides.

[Wilber]

I think people have to decide whether this is a service the country needs or a business that is expected to make money. This will probably vary a lot with where people live. Those in cities are more likely to say it isn't needed where people in rural and remote areas are more likely to say it is. Government provides a lot of different services that don't make money or are a necessity to everyone, but they are still necessary.

[TimG]

Those in cities are more likely to say it isn't needed where people in rural and remote areas are more likely to say it is.

People in rural areas need hi-speed internet more than they need post. Take the money used to subsidize Canada Post and use it to expand hi-speed internet access to areas where the free market cannot justify the investment.

[Wilber]

People in rural areas need hi-speed internet more than they need post. Take the money used to subsidize Canada Post and use it to expand hi-speed internet access to areas where the free market cannot justify the investment.

I would think they need both. Being able to order something on Amazon won't do you much good if there is no way of getting it.

[TimG]

Being able to order something on Amazon won't do you much good if there is no way of getting it.

You don't need Canada Post to deliver packages.

[Wilber]

You don't need Canada Post to deliver packages.

Some people do. Believe it or not, UPS and Fedex doesn't go everywhere.

[TimG]

Some people do. Believe it or not, UPS and Fedex doesn't go everywhere.

Neither does Canada Post.

[Wilber]

Neither does Canada Post.

Probably not but a lot more than UPS and Fedex. Problem is, because some people don't use a particular service, they often think it is unnecessary. Not so.

There are quite a few things which government provides that don't involve me, that doesn't mean they should be abolished.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Wilber

[TimG]

There are quite a few things which government provides that don't involve me, that doesn't mean they should be abolished.

Even if we accept the premise that package delivery is an essential service it seems to me that we would be better served by asking for competitive bids on publicly funded contracts to provide such service than to continue to support a national monopoly. Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[Wilber]

Possibly, but those companies won't make bids if they can't be profitable and if the service is essential it would have to include destinations that wouldn't have a hope of being made profitable. So the question would be, could private companies provide the same service at less cost to the tax payer than a public system. Possibly, but i don't think it is a given and who would oversee it?

[TimG]

Possibly, but those companies won't make bids if they can't be profitable and if the service is essential it would have to include destinations that wouldn't have a hope of being made profitable.

Which is why government funding is necessary. It would be a lot cheaper to pay a private company to extend their existing networks than to keep a public parcel delivery system running. Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[Wilber]

Which is why government funding is necessary. It would be a lot cheaper to pay a private company to extend their existing networks than to keep a public parcel delivery system running.

That is an assumption based on ideology, not a well researched business plan.

[TimG]

That is an assumption based on ideology, not a well researched business plan.

It is an assumption - but one that very unlikely to be wrong. We can never no for sure unless the government commits to ending the Canada Post monopoly. Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[Wilber]

It is an assumption - but one that very unlikely to be wrong. We can never no for sure unless the government commits to ending the Canada Post monopoly.

I think it would end up being a monopoly anyway because of the commitment and infrastructure required.

[TimG]

I think it would end up being a monopoly anyway because of the commitment and infrastructure required.

The monopoly portion would only affect people in rural communities. The majority of Canadians would have multiple providers to choose from.

Keep in mind that the Canada Post business model is broken and it cannot survive without tax payer subsidies for much longer. I would say that it should be allowed to go under and the government should work with the surviving private corporations.

[The_Squid]

So let me get this straight:

Canada Post should keep delivering to money-losing areas where private companies won't deliver and are losing money.

Private companies should take the more urban and profitable areas.

How would giving away the profitable areas and keeping the money draining areas help the taxpayer?

[Wilber]

The monopoly portion would only affect people in rural communities. The majority of Canadians would have multiple providers to choose from.Keep in mind that the Canada Post business model is broken and it cannot survive without tax payer subsidies for much longer. I would say that it should be allowed to go under and the government should work with the surviving private corporations.

Those companies would still have to be subsidized to provide service to those regions and the rest would have to be profitable, so I don't buy the automatic assumption that such a system would be cheaper.

[dre]

No, they couldn't. Nor should they. That's not how much the service costs. Why subsidize it?

Same reason the government subsidizes roads and bridges. Because its still a critical piece of national infrastructure.

Only 60% of the population has internet access, and until access is universal the mail is how the government interacts with citizens. They send out hundreds of millions of pieces of mail every year, to people and business that deal with every area of civil administration available. If they had to pay 10 dollars for each of those letters it would cost the taxpayers way more than keeping Canada post in the first place. And if they rely only on electronic communications, then they would essentially be giving up sovereignty over 40% of the country and its citizens.

If we can get to the point where internet access is universal then we will definately be able to phase out snail mail completely, but thats still decades away.

In the meantime its still a critical piece of national infrastructure, and it should be treated like roads or bridges.

[eyeball]

You can still get anything delivered to your doorstep. You just should have to pay a premium for it.

My fear with a "super box" is it'll be like my Hotmail inbox. I doubt I'll remember to check it frequently enough to clean out all the Spam, I mean direct marketing.

Just tell the PO you don't want junk mail. I stopped getting junk mail years and years ago. Now with email and going paperless I go two weeks without checking my mailbox and there's often only one or two things. Usually spam from my MP, a couple of get well cards last summer, the odd parcel, and redundant bills from outfits that can't seem to get with the times.

[dre]

I would say that it should be allowed to go under and the government should work with the surviving private corporations.

That isnt going to happen, and it would an epic disaster if it did. Mail is a key component of civil administration and sovereignty. Hundreds of millions of letters and forms are sent between the government and the public every years dealing with every aspect of federal provincial administration.

Not only that but cheap mail is an important component of our consumption based economy. Canada post delivers millions of tons of advertisments, leaflets, bank statements, credit card statements, each year. As annoying as a lot of this stuff is, its important grease in the gears of our consumer economy, and its still a key link between business and consumers.

Shutting it down is a REALLY DUMB idea. And it would COST the taxpayers a boatload of money, not save them any. We SHOULD work towards phasing out snail mail but Canada Post will be around for at least another 20 to 50 years.

Edited December 16, 2013 by dre

[eyeball]

People in rural areas need hi-speed internet more than they need post. Take the money used to subsidize Canada Post and use it to expand hi-speed internet access to areas where the free market cannot justify the investment.

We're getting that too where I live and a good part of the reason is the result of treaties with local First Nations. They're becoming one of the biggest economic drivers in our region.

[TimG]

Hundreds of millions of letters and forms are sent between the government and the public every years dealing with every aspect of federal provincial administration.

There is no reason why these need to be delivered by a crown corporation.

Canada post delivers millions of tons of advertisements, leaflets

ROTFL. Spam email is cheaper and probably more effective.

bank statements, credit card statements, each year.

Banks are increasing the cost of getting paper statements each year. More and more people will switch to electronic delivery.

Shutting it down is a REALLY DUMB idea. And it would COST the taxpayers a boatload of money, not save them any. We SHOULD work towards phasing out snail mail but Canada Post will be around for at least another 20 to 50 years.

The trouble is Canada Post will eventually start demanding subsidies for rural service and we have no way to separate the subsidies for rural service from the general inefficiency of the organization. I would say that it should be turned into a for profit corporation with no monopoly - but I doubt it could compete given its legacy. Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[dre]

There is no reason why these need to be delivered by a crown corporation.

Yes there is. Youre whining about the cost of subsidies. It would cost the government about 10 dollars each to send those pieces of mail using puralator. It would cost the taxpayer a hundred times as much as Canada Post cost them in subsidies. Shutting down Canada post would not saving the taxpayer ANYTHING, it would COST them a huge fortune. And thats why its just flat out not gonna happen anytime soon.

It WILL happen, but like I said, we are 20-50 years away still.

ROTFL. Spam email is cheaper and probably more effective.

No, not even close. Every single household and business in the country has a known mailable address. Thats exactly why email hasnt replaced all this stuff.

Edited December 16, 2013 by dre

[jbg]

There is no reason why these need to be delivered by a crown corporation.

This will seem a rare post for me but here goes.

One of the functions of government is to provide essential service where private enterprise can't or won't. I can't imagine Kapuskasing or even Baie Comeau (sp) being served by regular mail service without the help of a crown corporation. Canada, population-wise is an urban country, and large swaths of the country would be left behind without government-subsidized post and internet.

Ditto my country.